Yes, very good answer. But one question looms still...
Someone in the post below said that mat it held together with a styrene
based binder that dissolves in polyester resin but not epoxy resin. Then
how come System Three, RAKA, and other companies sell 1708 (17 oz cloth plus
8 oz mat) that is compatible with epoxy? Surely these outfits must be
selling material with something other than a styrene based binder in it???
Can anybody offer a good answer on this?
Thanks,
Brian
"Pete" wrote in message
...
A lot clearer now, thanks.
Pete
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:26:07 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:
Lets get the terminology straight first.
Roving is a thick yarn loosely woven fabric used as the structural
component in a polyester lay-up.
Cloth is a thin yarn relatively tightly woven fabric used as the top ply
in polyester and epoxy lay-ups.
Mat is a loose felt like glass fiber with no weave. it is just random
fibers mixed with a styrene based binder and lightly pressed into a
sheet. It is used between layers of roving to fill the voids between
yarns and under the outside cloth to prevent the weave of the roving
from printing through as the polyester cures.
Knitted fabric is straight, unwoven glass yarns that are held together
in a fabric by very light weight threads knitted across the yarns. The
yarns can run the long or warp direction, across the short or weft
direction. Two or three plys of yarn can be knitted together on the
bias (45/45) or warp and weft (0/90) or some combination. It is called
Bi-axial or tri-axial.
The numbers used on US fabrics are the ounces per square yard.
A-130 is 13 oz/sq.yd. unidirectional knitted E-glass. DB180 is 18 oz
45/45 bidirectional. CD120 is 12 oz 0/90 bidirectional. When there are
4 digits it is usually some kind of combination of fabric and mat.
DB1808 is 18 oz biaxial with a layer of 8 oz mat laminated to it.
Here is a page with all the Knytex fabric specs.
http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/pdf/...tedFabrics.pdf
Another word of advice, never buy fabric that has an epoxy maker's name
on it. Check around for a fiberglass supplier that handles the major
maker's lines. You are going to be buying at least a couple of rolls
and the prices get a LOT lower in full rolls.
Pete wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:19:50 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:
First of all don't use mat with epoxy. The binder that holds mat
together is designed to desolve in the styrene in polyester. It will
not bond to epoxy. Even if it did, mat is primarily for adding bulk
and
is terribly inefficient for carrying the loads in a strip composite
hull. Loose thick "Roving" also is less than desirable with epoxy. It
takes to much resin to fill adding little to the strength and a lot to
the weight. Uni-directional and bi-directional knitted fabrics are
used to match the strength of the epoxy. Two layers of DB180
bi-directional is about 3mm. Two layers of A-130 unidirectional is
about 1.5mm.
Ah, now this is something I have not heard of, now I am really
confused. Maybe it is just a question of terminology because the stuff
I'm talking about is specified by the designers Van de Stadt. I say
mat probably in ignorance but the exact specification is for 2 layers
of uni-directional roving laid diagonally, 90° from each other. I
suspect from your comments that I should be sayiing fabrics, I really
had no idea there was a difference between glassfibre for epoxy and
polyester.
Unfortunately for me, the reference A 130 doesn't mean anything to
me, is it an international or national reference? West Systems or
their distributors here do not supply anything like my specifications,
but SP Systems do and it's called unitex woven low crimp
unidirectional fabric, fibre type E-glass. Looks like I've got some
checking to do.
With that out of the way, vacuum bagging is definitely worth if if you
want the most strength with the least weight. It is not all that hard
to do. Check out my web site to see how a team of 6 volunteers with no
experience glassed and bagged my 45' hull.
I've been checking out your site for a while, and after years of
procrastination I have got from it most of my inspiration to finally
go ahead and build myself. Thanks from me and quite a few others I
should think.
Fairing putty on a well laid hull ranges from none to what ever is
necessary to get a fair hull. It is not for filling the weave but for
evening out the overall lines. Normally when lofting station molds you
don't consider the fairing putty thickness. If you do everything
exactly right you won't need much putty. If you deliberately allow for
it you will be forced to use a lot more than you would otherwise.
Thanks for your help
Pete wrote:
On average, how thick is the putty fairing layer over the mat on a
strip planked hull? I guess it may depend on whether vacuum bags were
used (that's a question too - what's the general consensus on vacuum
bagging a hull?; what are the gains 'cos it looks like loads of
work?).
I'm just trying to cut the molds from the designers lofting templates
and I want to know how much to reduce the size of them by, to allow
for the overall hull thickness. But I also need to order the right
amount of filler too.
The glass suppliers have told me that two layers of 500g m² mat of uni
directional rovings laid at 90° add up to about 0.75mm after layup -
sorry about the metric measurements for the Americans, I haven't a
clue how many ounces/yd² that is - which sounds negiligble to me, but
I have read somewhere of around 3mm or just over 1/8 inch may be
fairing filler.
This sounds a lot to me (after my many attempts at plastering over
defects, I feel that the more you put on, the worse things get). It
seems to me that if easily sanded fairing is used it must be a bit
soft, so would the minimum necessary be used?
I'm talking epoxy here BTW, and I'm assuming that I will make a
reasonable job of laying up the mat .............. hmmm, I can hear
the gods of Famous and Doomed Last Words stirring from their slumber
already.......
TTFN
Pete