Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
........But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor

markvictor wrote:
Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
.......But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
I take advantage of your expertise for a question I was never able to
solve. In my 1973 sailboat (bought in 1991) the shaft line includes an
"Aqua-drive like" twin universal joint piece and a standalone
bearing/support/dripless-shaft-seal all in one piece (engine: Perkins
4.108 + VelvetDrive transm.). This last part has two or three (don't
remember exactly) lip-seals on the water/stern side where the shaft
enters, and a couple of big ball bearings (one radial and one axial)
flooded in grease inside. No oil or water cooling. Shortly after
buying the boat I had to dismantle the assembly and change the ball
bearings, the lipseals and have the shaft rectified because there was
water inside. Since then I just checked the grease once in a while and
added some. My question is: what the heck is it since I cannot find any
documentation? What kind of grease should I use? Every how many years
should I check the lip-seals and the shaft?

Thanks
Daniel

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

..




Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor










http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

Daniel wrote:
markvictor wrote:
Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
.......But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
I take advantage of your expertise for a question I was never able to
solve. In my 1973 sailboat (bought in 1991) the shaft line includes an
"Aqua-drive like" twin universal joint piece and a standalone
bearing/support/dripless-shaft-seal all in one piece (engine: Perkins
4.108 + VelvetDrive transm.). This last part has two or three (don't
remember exactly) lip-seals on the water/stern side where the shaft
enters, and a couple of big ball bearings (one radial and one axial)
flooded in grease inside. No oil or water cooling. Shortly after
buying the boat I had to dismantle the assembly and change the ball
bearings, the lipseals and have the shaft rectified because there was
water inside. Since then I just checked the grease once in a while and
added some. My question is: what the heck is it since I cannot find any
documentation? What kind of grease should I use? Every how many years
should I check the lip-seals and the shaft?

Thanks
Danie


Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

markvictor wrote:
Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
yes I sort of remember the back-to-back seal configuration and yes, the
seals were on the outer part of the assembly (towards the water). The
damage consisted in wear where the lip-seals touched the shaft: very
smooth annular groves matching exactly the seal position. Your
suggestion of the kind of grease is very helpful and I will follow it.
For a while I thought I had to use a liquid grease and let it flow; you
know like a small container full of oil connected through a small hose
and placed one foot above the system. But it "drank" a lot of oil and
soon I disconnected the whole selfmade assembly and used thick lubricant
again.
Regarding the boat model/make, I am afraid it may be of little help as
you will realize: the boat model is called "Orca", a 43' sloop designed
by the US architect Dick Carter but completely built in Italy in 1973.
The outstanding thing is that such a device is very unusual in sailboats
of this kind and I have not found anybody familiar with it. I would
like very much to find a mechanical drawing, specs and instructions but
this seems an almost impossible deed.

Anyway, thank you very much for your help, I appreciate very much your
kindness.

Daniele

Hey Daniele...or is it Daniel?...
no matter...I've seen similar set-ups on Hallberg-Rasseys, including
the lube resevoirs( on the rudder as well)...but I too have found them
to ocassionally be problematic, and even the smallest flaw causes
leaks...The fact that the grooves were caused by the seal bodies
suggest that there may have been an alignment problem which caused the
failure...so I would check or have it checked at your earliest
convenience to prevent recurrance...One thing I might suggest if you
have the room, next time you have it apart you can double up the "water
out seal", if not ,check with a seal distributor, they have "double
lip"seals available which effectively doubles the seals
abilities...I.ll keep an eye out for some kind of drawing or print...if
you go to my group (link below) you can e-mail me and I'll get in touch
if I can find anything.....
Regards,
markvictor

http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

I don't know if you have this info already, but perhaps it's a start..

Boats Outfitted L.o.a. Designer
m

Galatea, Mariver (4) 12.00 Sparkman & Stephens
Optimist, Sailboats (4) 10.20 D. Carter
Orca, Sailboats 12.00 D. Carter
Vanessa 10.20 Van De Stadt
Quasar 14.50 C. Sciarelli
Pilussa 14.50 Sparkman & Stephens
Sajano 16.00 M. Roberti
Motorsailer, Franchini 14.00 R. Starkel
Cayman 17.20 G. Frers

Cantiere Nautico Morri & Para
Via San Martino Riparotta 12
47049 Viserba di Rimini RN, Italy
Fax: +39-0541-740593 · Tel: +39-0541-740593


Perhaps they can provide you with some documentation or steer you in
the right direction....
Regards,
markvictor
http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz?hl=en