Thomas,
There was no insult intended, only good advice. Building or restoring a boat
will involve a lot of learning and gathering of skills you probably do not
have yet, but to do that is a lot of fun, if you can afford the time
investment and I wish you all the success possible. On your original
question, a cutlass bearing is a metal tube with a fluted rubber insert
through which a propeller shaft extends. Typically this bearing is supported
by a strut which is fastened to the bottom of the hull. Cutlass bearings are
"Limited Duty" bearings found mostly in inboard engined pleasure boats. They
must be lubricated by water flow, hence their mounting in struts in clear
open water. They may also be mounted in the deadwood of full keel boats, but
if mounted there, some provision must be made to provide adequate water
flow. This can be done by scoops or by engine driven pump as by the outlet
of an engine heat exchanger. Commercial craft typically use oil or grease
lubed plain bearings. Cutlass bearings will wear the propeller shaft, so
they are rarely used in commercial craft. Stuffing boxes are used where the
shaft enters the hull. They very often are mounted in a rubber bellows which
makes them self aligning, but they can be mounted hard to the hull as well.
They are not designed to provide bearing function only that of a water seal.
Very often there will be a grease fitting or oil feed arrangement to keep
them lubed. They too will wear the propeller shaft, so they are not used in
modern commercial craft. The modern replacement device for this function is
a ceramic face, spring loaded water seal, which only require occasional
inspection. The cutlass bearing or equivalent, provides propeller shaft
support at the propeller end. Typically the inboard end of the propeller
shaft is supported by the tail bearing of the marine gearbox. This bearing
also provides propeller thrust support as well by transferring drive force
to the engine mounts. This bearing must be oil lubed and cooled. In some
craft there will be a separate bearing mounted firmly to the hull that
provides the thrust function, but they will be separately oiled and cooled.
If used, it allows the engine to be mounted on vibration absorbing flexible
mounts for sound isolation reasons. I hope this explanation helps.
Steve


"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
news:iJStf.2010$WX3.1725@trndny09...

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Tom,
I have been watching your other posts as well as this one and it is
pretty clear you are in the beginning stages of consideration for boat
ownership. I'm going to lay out some facts of life you probably won't
want to read, but do need to know.

1) Building a boat is not cheaper than buying one.
2) Owning a boat, using a boat, insuring a boat, establishing a place for
a boat is expensive.
3) Boat maintenance will take most of your free time.
4) If you are married, a boat will be the least popular thing you could
undertake with your other half.
5) The boat hull is 20% of the investment.
6) The majority of boat building attempts fail. The larger the boat, the
greater the failure rate.
7) Number one reason for failure in building is underestimating the total
cost in both money and time.

There are more, but your posts indicate to me that you do not have the
available money, the skills or the tools to either build or own a boat in
the class you are considering. Building a boat is very rewarding and I do
not wish to discourage you, but reality is alive and well. My advise to
you is to build a small day boat first. Get your feet wet. Failure is
affordable and success is just as sweet.
Steve


"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
news:huBtf.1992$zJ3.65@trnddc04...
If you know a good site for info about this part of boat ??

Or, can you explain it here.

So far I know ,,,, hole in boat for shaft to go through from engine.
Is the cutlass bearing what lets the shaft turn and not let the water
in?

What and where is the stuffing box?



------------------------------------------

Dear Steve ,,,,,,,,,, oh contraire, my friend. I have actually owned and
sailed three [3] full keel, sailboats.

In fact, one of them was quite famous. But ............... and here is
the BUT part ;;; it was 20 plus years ago.

I think I have forgotten more than I ever knew. As I look into returning
to the high seas, I find that certain aspects of boat owning, maintenace,
repair, operation, cost, etc have either changed dramatically or I can't
remember the method, or procedure to follow. In some cases, such as the
Cutlass Bearing ... I just never had to deal with it as the marina did the
maintenance. That is one difference now; I plan on doing most of my own
work. I have the time ...

I also have two sons who are interested in sailing. At least today they
are.

As for the money ... to be honest, I could go out and purchase a sailboat.
I don't wish to. Why? I want to do it my way. I want things set up for
me. I want a boat that reflects my personal approach to life. I have
been on the fancy piece of fiberglass with all the blocks and sails and
the gear that never gets used. I've sat on boats that never leave the
harbor. I've talked to owners who think of sailing as writing a check.
Ever hear of the New York Yacht Club.

They are to be avoided at all cost. When Wall st goes sailing
................ you don't want to be there.

So,,,, before you make assumptions ..................

Now ............ back to the Cutlass Bearing ...

Let's see ,,, the shaft goes through a shaft log,,, and it is held in
place by a Cutlass Bearing and then there is the stuffing box ....

I'm almost ready for my first "MARINA BILL"..


TALLY HO.

Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
........But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor

markvictor wrote:
Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
.......But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
I take advantage of your expertise for a question I was never able to
solve. In my 1973 sailboat (bought in 1991) the shaft line includes an
"Aqua-drive like" twin universal joint piece and a standalone
bearing/support/dripless-shaft-seal all in one piece (engine: Perkins
4.108 + VelvetDrive transm.). This last part has two or three (don't
remember exactly) lip-seals on the water/stern side where the shaft
enters, and a couple of big ball bearings (one radial and one axial)
flooded in grease inside. No oil or water cooling. Shortly after
buying the boat I had to dismantle the assembly and change the ball
bearings, the lipseals and have the shaft rectified because there was
water inside. Since then I just checked the grease once in a while and
added some. My question is: what the heck is it since I cannot find any
documentation? What kind of grease should I use? Every how many years
should I check the lip-seals and the shaft?

Thanks
Daniel

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor










http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

Daniel wrote:
markvictor wrote:
Hello again Thomas,
Let's dispell some more myths...and agree with some truths. We
already know thae all boats do NOT have struts, particularly full-keel
sailboats as opposed to fin-keeled....Many boats of higher -end
construction(Nordhaven comes to mind,for instance) have bearings at the
inner and outer end of the shaft log to reduce load on the TAILSHAFT
bearing of the gearbox or reduction gear and to prevent "whipping of
the shaft" ( a jump-rope-like effect) often caused by a long
unsupported length
of shaft and some misalignment-it doesn't take much-...Most commercial
craft DO have strut and cutlass bearings; I have replaced many more
than I care to count, having been in the marine service industry for
the last 27+ years... The ceramic "face seal" that Steve refers to is a
PSS "dripless shaft seal, and I see them far more often in pleasure
boats than in Commercial applications. More commercial boats who have
oil cooled upper bearings or standard logs use a TIDES type dripless
seal, a lipseal very similar to a grease seal, this must be cooled by
oil (the minority)or raw water which is engine supplied if available or
supplied by a static siphon vent in keel- cooled apps, and typically
with lower shaft RPM's (under 2000) The oil cooled stuffing boxes are
becoming increasingly scarce on all but ships, they are environmentally
detrimental as they leak oil to seawater intentionally, the approved
versions are completely lubricant-captive and are quite expensive.The
stand alone bearing and support Steve speaks of(Aqua-Drive) and similar
has a twofold purpose: it allows major shaft misalignment to facilitate
a variety of engine installations and it transfers thust directly to
the stringers as Steve said...However, the vast-almost all-majority of
propulsion engines are mounted on flexible,vibration dampening mounts,
with or without an intermediate bearing and supports...in virtually all
pleasurecraft and most small to medium commercial apps.
.......But this is far more information than I think you were
seeking...lol
Good luck in whatever venture you decide to take on...Screw the
NYYC types....
Best Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
I take advantage of your expertise for a question I was never able to
solve. In my 1973 sailboat (bought in 1991) the shaft line includes an
"Aqua-drive like" twin universal joint piece and a standalone
bearing/support/dripless-shaft-seal all in one piece (engine: Perkins
4.108 + VelvetDrive transm.). This last part has two or three (don't
remember exactly) lip-seals on the water/stern side where the shaft
enters, and a couple of big ball bearings (one radial and one axial)
flooded in grease inside. No oil or water cooling. Shortly after
buying the boat I had to dismantle the assembly and change the ball
bearings, the lipseals and have the shaft rectified because there was
water inside. Since then I just checked the grease once in a while and
added some. My question is: what the heck is it since I cannot find any
documentation? What kind of grease should I use? Every how many years
should I check the lip-seals and the shaft?

Thanks
Danie


Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

..




Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz

Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor

markvictor wrote:
Daniel,
I think I know what you're talking about, but let's see...The seals,are
they outboard of the ball bearing?(towards the water) In that
configuration,they often run two seals facing in opposite directions,
they call this a back to back configuration-one seal retains grease,
the other repels water, This system still allows a small amount of
water past the lip seal or it would burn up...the key here is to keep
the grease topped off,to prevent excessive water fromthe bearing,the
shaft really doesn't need to be checked unless you start to get water
past your bearing which would indicate serios wear on the seals...A
good MARINE grease such as lubriplate or equiv.is essential...It is
usually a pale bluish green and has excellent water resistant
qualities..You'll see how hard it is when you try to wash it from your
hands,even with soap and water..Assuming you have a zerk fitting,one or
two quick squirts from a grease gun every say, 5 or 6 hours of running
time should be plenty...and remember that the intermediate bearing and
thrust plate needs to be properly aligned with the propshaft to prevent
the seals from premature failure...one thibg I'm not clear on is how
your shaft was damaged...let me know so I can get a better take on what
your original problem was all about...Also what model/make is your
boat?
Regards,
markvictor


Mark,
yes I sort of remember the back-to-back seal configuration and yes, the
seals were on the outer part of the assembly (towards the water). The
damage consisted in wear where the lip-seals touched the shaft: very
smooth annular groves matching exactly the seal position. Your
suggestion of the kind of grease is very helpful and I will follow it.
For a while I thought I had to use a liquid grease and let it flow; you
know like a small container full of oil connected through a small hose
and placed one foot above the system. But it "drank" a lot of oil and
soon I disconnected the whole selfmade assembly and used thick lubricant
again.
Regarding the boat model/make, I am afraid it may be of little help as
you will realize: the boat model is called "Orca", a 43' sloop designed
by the US architect Dick Carter but completely built in Italy in 1973.
The outstanding thing is that such a device is very unusual in sailboats
of this kind and I have not found anybody familiar with it. I would
like very much to find a mechanical drawing, specs and instructions but
this seems an almost impossible deed.

Anyway, thank you very much for your help, I appreciate very much your
kindness.

Daniele

Hey Daniele...or is it Daniel?...
no matter...I've seen similar set-ups on Hallberg-Rasseys, including
the lube resevoirs( on the rudder as well)...but I too have found them
to ocassionally be problematic, and even the smallest flaw causes
leaks...The fact that the grooves were caused by the seal bodies
suggest that there may have been an alignment problem which caused the
failure...so I would check or have it checked at your earliest
convenience to prevent recurrance...One thing I might suggest if you
have the room, next time you have it apart you can double up the "water
out seal", if not ,check with a seal distributor, they have "double
lip"seals available which effectively doubles the seals
abilities...I.ll keep an eye out for some kind of drawing or print...if
you go to my group (link below) you can e-mail me and I'll get in touch
if I can find anything.....
Regards,
markvictor

http://groups.google.com/group/badboatbiz