just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old?
the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available?
Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was
completely verticaly integrated?
how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today?

Courtney Thomas ) writes:
If so, where can they be accessed, please ?

Thank you.
--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619



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"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old?
the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available?
Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was
completely verticaly integrated?
how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today?

You know the old saying "Where there's a will, there's a way."?

Well, where there's a will, there's also marketability. That's why there
are still-existent bronze age craft instructors, sailcloth makers,
loomspinners, renaissance faires....

A business for every interest.

Are you serious?!! "of what use" ???!! The Herreshoffs made leaps and
bounds in sail and power boats. The lines of a Herreshoff are worth the
study, and it's also amazing to see the size of the scantlings used, very
small indeed. Old hardware is still around and there are a few moulds that
people are casting with. The biggest leap isn't in the material, it's in the
construction. Herreshoff's construction methods were secret at the time and
were not passed on before the old timers died. Moulds on every frame,
tapered frames, building (even the NY50) upside down. There is plenty to be
had by old plans like that.

Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then.

Eide

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
just out of curiosity of what use are plans that old?
the old growth wood with the close rings would no longer be available?
Hereshoff made his own hardware, in fact his whole operation was
completely verticaly integrated?
how much alteration would be needed to build a lookalike today?

Courtney Thomas ) writes:
If so, where can they be accessed, please ?

Thank you.
--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619



--
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William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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"Eide" wrote in message
Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then.


And progress produces only junk . . . :-)

--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

Different strokes for different folks. Function versus form versus
maintenance versus utility versus beauty versus ... ... ... the trade-offs
go on forever.

"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message
.. .
"Eide" wrote in message
Sorry for the rant, but they were doing something right back then.


And progress produces only junk . . . :-)

--
Jacques
http://www.bateau.com

Eide wrote:
:
: Moulds on every frame,
: tapered frames,

Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer
etc. Helps performance.

But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are
rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch).

first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time
consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16",
moulded and sided, for every foot of length.

So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions
moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one
breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box.
Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location.

Still, I'm adhering to the tapers.


--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm


"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

On 23 Dec 2003 10:28:04 -0400, Gregg Germain
wrote:

Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer
etc. Helps performance.

But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are
rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch).

first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time
consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16",
moulded and sided, for every foot of length.

I don't think it took that much longer in a shop that did it
routinely. I have an anecdote that explains.

When I had a loft in Boston for instrument making, through the mid
1970s, the Charlestown Naval Shipyard auctioned off its equipment.
Everything that could be easily moved was collected in a large room,
but a few things stayed in place.

Among thes was two machines I was later told were "ship saws." They
were effectively "tilting arbor" band saws with stationary tables
about 6 or 7 feet square, 6-foot wheels, and a yoke whose exterior was
a semicircular arc centered on the hole in the table where the boade
passed. The lower wheel was in a slot in the follr, so the table was
at a reasonable working height.

The outside of the arc had gear teeth, and there was a crank located
so a man could turn it while he observed the cut from above. There
were degrees of tilt marked on it as well. I tried to imagine how this
was used, and why there were two of them.

Three brothers who had a millwork shop on the first floor of my loft
building were able to describe its use. They had worked for a yard
that built small craft for the US Navy during WW2.

That machine was used to make sawn ribs.The curve was transferred from
drawing to the top surface, and numbers indicating the angle of the
plank marked along the curve.

Two men worked together to cut the ribs. One fed the piece into the
saw, supported by the always flat table. The other would turn the tilt
crank to produce smooth transitions of tilt from one number to the
next.

Thus, the outer surface of the rib would closely approximate the inner
surface of the plank that would eventually lie against it. And these
saws could do ribs for jobs as big as the restoration of the USS
Constitution.

Nearby was a station for a 36" DeWalt RAS, which had been moved to the
warehouse. That was an astonishing machine to see. It had a power
feed.

On the ground floor below the ship saws was a band sawmill to saw logs
that came in directly from schooners tied to the seawall. A coiled
blade lay on the floor. Its width reached my knee from the floor. I
can't imagine how you would coil a bandsaw blade that big.

I don't know what happened to these magnificent machines. I hope they
are in a museum but if they are I don't know where it is.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


"In this house we _obey_ the laws of thermodynamics." --Homer Simpson

There are still 'Tilting Arbor Band Saws" around in major shipyards.. In
fact, when I was running the wood hobby shop in Guam, we installed a smaller
version of what you discribed..

Although there is little need for them to cut the bevel on ships frames, the
smaller versions are used to cut fitted blocks for the side block caps in
dry docks.. Most commercial ships are docked on universal blocks that are
convex on top with little or no bevel.. For navy ships the top of the side
blocks must be cut to fit the contour of the hull.. This is usually cut from
12"x12" Douglas Fir. For this you need to cut both the curve of the hull and
the bevel.. The docking plan gives a table for this that is derived (after a
fashion) from the original table of offsets.

Your tax dollars at work..

Just some shipyard/drydock trivia. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Gregg,

Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ?

Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do
such a thing ?

Appreciatively,

Courtney



Gregg Germain wrote:

Eide wrote:
:
: Moulds on every frame,
: tapered frames,

Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer
etc. Helps performance.

But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are
rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch).

first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time
consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16",
moulded and sided, for every foot of length.

So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions
moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one
breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box.
Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location.

Still, I'm adhering to the tapers.


--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm


"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558




--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619

Ask the curator at
http://www.herreshoff.org/Tops/herre..._drawings.html

Courtney Thomas wrote:

Gregg,

Are there no steel reproductions/simulations/etc. of Herreshoff designs ?

Would those in charge of the archived plans obstruct an attempt to do
such a thing ?

Appreciatively,

Courtney

Gregg Germain wrote:

Eide wrote:
:
: Moulds on every frame,
: tapered frames,

Yeah...tapered frames. All very well - removes weight at the sheer
etc. Helps performance.

But I'm here to tell you it's an infernal nuisance when you are
rebuilding (possibly easier when building from scratch).

first just getting the frames out of the flitches is much more time
consuming. They start 1" x 1" at the sheer and increase 1/16",
moulded and sided, for every foot of length.

So each rib is a different length therefore different dimensions
moulded and sided. So you cannot steam up a bunch of them and if one
breaks toss it over the side and grabe the next one out of the box.
Each is cut to size and fits only in that one location.

Still, I'm adhering to the tapers.


--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:


Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm


"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558



--
Courtney Thomas
s/v Mutiny
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619