| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
|
|
#1
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
DSK wrote:
They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't keep a record?? But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. Fewer than 10% of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less how to search a boat's history. The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value... I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value of the boat. Not so, Doug...most lenders also require a survey on most used boats. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for the boat. Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! When I bought the Trojan (for cash btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my insurance would be cancelled. Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you negotiate with a seller... Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor. but the problem then becomes getting insurance without professionally correcting his punch list. Yup. True. All you need to do is wait! Unless you're buyin'...  When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for inflation and better bank rates at that time frame. The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty much flat in the '90s. However, I was able to get the original 1979 factory-dealer invoice for the Trojan...she had a retail list of $97k with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had doubled the price of a comparable new boat. One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down. That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for $43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no payments. Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either. There are pros...and there are them who call themselves pros. Ya gotta be careful who to pick. I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster. That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. She has sat on and/or chairedevery industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I didn't have her survey the Trojan when I bought it...she'd surveyed it for the last 3 owners, knew every inch of it...so we spent a rainy Sunday in her office going over her files and costing out "worst case" and finally coming up with a fair "as is, where is" offer to the estate of the elderly man who owned her. She didn't do the insurance survey either...she was in Savannah in charge of risk management for Oympic racing venue. She did survey it for the buyer when I sold it, though...and even though she's a friend, and had bird-dogged everything I did to it...to the extent that I'd have bet real money she couldn't find a thing that needed correction, she did! Nothing major, but that lady doesn't even cut her friends ANY slack when she works for someone else! Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out there. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
|
#2
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records.
Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't keep a record?? Peggie Hall wrote: But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. That's a possible problem. Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to file a police report. But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a guarantee that he didn't take good care of it. ... Fewer than 10% of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less how to search a boat's history. For big boats? Really? I didn't know that. Even brand new boats should get a buyer's survey. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for the boat. Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! Whoa there! There is no breach of any ethics, and I've heard it happening quite a lot... that's on both coasts, too. The yacht surveyor is not an economics expert and he's not a salesman, nor is he a repair contractor. A surveyor is *not* an appraiser of dollar value, he is an appraiser of the boats functional condition! Market value goes up & down by season, by location, by the whims of national & local economics... asking your surveyor for a hard dollar appraisal is simply hanging numbers in mid air. Most likely he's got a good idea, possibly better than the buyer. But the one who can tell you what the last 5 boats of that type actually changed hands for is the broker... but he has a vested interest in getting the higher possible price out of the buyer. The surveyor does not have a vested interest other than giving information to the buyer. Assigning a value to the boat which allows the buyer to finance or insure the boat is no breach of ethics... or even etiquette... unless he's doing something like colluding to get a kickback... or if he allows the buyer to remain ignorant of a safety issue with the boat, which is his real job anyway. ... When I bought the Trojan (for cash btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my insurance would be cancelled. Yep. That's not so unusual. Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you negotiate with a seller... Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor. You have a funny idea about ethics. This is *exactly* why the buyer should not run out and hire the surveyor recommended by the broker. True. All you need to do is wait! Unless you're buyin'... heh heh an eager buyer is like a lamb being led to slaughter. When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for inflation and better bank rates at that time frame. The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty much flat in the '90s. Not trying to be a jerk here, but that's not quite true. Inflation was "flat" at 2% ~ 3% which could add up over 4 years to ~ $5k, or about 1/3 of the gain in your price. Significant? IMHO it is. with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had doubled the price of a comparable new boat. Same thing has happened with sailboats. But the basic designs have gotten better, so you're getting something for the money. And keeping them has gotten cheaper (relative to inflation) most places. One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down. That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for $43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no payments. Yep... and you had a boat that you were familiar with, equipped the way you wanted, instead equipped the dealer wanted. I'm all in favor of fixing up boats, I just don't think it's a practical way to make a living except for very few people. I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster. That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. Yep. She's the top. ... She has sat on and/or chaired every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I'd also be interested in her opinion on whether or not surveyors are responsible for giving buyer a cash value appraisal of the boat  (I'm cheating, she had an apprentice in tow when she surveyed our avoid-at-all-costs boat and I heard what she told him on the subject). Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out there. Well, I wouldn't go that far... a few, sure... most become surveyors because they love boats. There are drunks and incompetents in every field. Boat surveying is really complex and there is no way you can look at *everything.* The first rule of thumb is that your surveyor is going to miss something. A good surveyor (and I think most are pretty good) are more like detectives in that they are hunting for clues about past or impending problems, because you'd have to disassemble the boat... or operationally test it under severe conditions... to actually see the problem first hand. Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
|
#3
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Peggie DSK wrote: They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't keep a record?? Peggie Hall wrote: But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. That's a possible problem. Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to file a police report. But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a guarantee that he didn't take good care of it. ... Fewer than 10% of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less how to search a boat's history. For big boats? Really? I didn't know that. Even brand new boats should get a buyer's survey. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for the boat. Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! Whoa there! There is no breach of any ethics, and I've heard it happening quite a lot... that's on both coasts, too. The yacht surveyor is not an economics expert and he's not a salesman, nor is he a repair contractor. A surveyor is *not* an appraiser of dollar value, he is an appraiser of the boats functional condition! Market value goes up & down by season, by location, by the whims of national & local economics... asking your surveyor for a hard dollar appraisal is simply hanging numbers in mid air. Most likely he's got a good idea, possibly better than the buyer. But the one who can tell you what the last 5 boats of that type actually changed hands for is the broker... but he has a vested interest in getting the higher possible price out of the buyer. The surveyor does not have a vested interest other than giving information to the buyer. Assigning a value to the boat which allows the buyer to finance or insure the boat is no breach of ethics... or even etiquette... unless he's doing something like colluding to get a kickback... or if he allows the buyer to remain ignorant of a safety issue with the boat, which is his real job anyway. ... When I bought the Trojan (for cash btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my insurance would be cancelled. Yep. That's not so unusual. Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you negotiate with a seller... Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor. You have a funny idea about ethics. This is *exactly* why the buyer should not run out and hire the surveyor recommended by the broker. True. All you need to do is wait! Unless you're buyin'... heh heh an eager buyer is like a lamb being led to slaughter. When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k. That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for inflation and better bank rates at that time frame. The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty much flat in the '90s. Not trying to be a jerk here, but that's not quite true. Inflation was "flat" at 2% ~ 3% which could add up over 4 years to ~ $5k, or about 1/3 of the gain in your price. Significant? IMHO it is. with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had doubled the price of a comparable new boat. Same thing has happened with sailboats. But the basic designs have gotten better, so you're getting something for the money. And keeping them has gotten cheaper (relative to inflation) most places. One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down. That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for $43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no payments. Yep... and you had a boat that you were familiar with, equipped the way you wanted, instead equipped the dealer wanted. I'm all in favor of fixing up boats, I just don't think it's a practical way to make a living except for very few people. I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster. That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. Yep. She's the top. ... She has sat on and/or chaired every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I'd also be interested in her opinion on whether or not surveyors are responsible for giving buyer a cash value appraisal of the boat (I'm cheating, she had an apprentice in tow when she surveyed our avoid-at-all-costs boat and I heard what she told him on the subject). Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out there. Well, I wouldn't go that far... a few, sure... most become surveyors because they love boats. There are drunks and incompetents in every field. Boat surveying is really complex and there is no way you can look at *everything.* The first rule of thumb is that your surveyor is going to miss something. A good surveyor (and I think most are pretty good) are more like detectives in that they are hunting for clues about past or impending problems, because you'd have to disassemble the boat... or operationally test it under severe conditions... to actually see the problem first hand. Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question. Fresh Breezes- Doug King -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
|
#4
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Peggie Hall wrote:
Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Peggie Uh oh. I hope I'm not in trouble DSK |
|
#5
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it: peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. Peggie Peggie and Doug, and to all that have added... This has been fantastic! I've forwarded this thread to my cousin Jerry, hoping he'll respond when he gets back from vacation. I'm no boat builder, but I've learned a lot from this thread. I'd wish you all could keep adding. after all, this IS a NEWSGROUP isn't it??? Wasted bandwidth? LOL! At least theres no 340+ posts on trashing jet-ski'rs! Tim |
|
#7
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Brian Cleverly wrote:
An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate" because of the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice... You *must* arrange to buy at at least wholesale due to the high markups on anything to do with our business (read "Marine")... Having been both a wholesale distributor and a mail order retailer, you're right...BUT--not everything is cheaper wholesale. The discount retail prices can often be less than dealer price (toilets are just one example)...so while I agree that getting a sales tax certificate isn't optional, it essential, it also pays to shop the discount retail prices instead of blindly buying everything wholesale. With a tax #, you can buy most things retail without also paying the sales tax...if you have to pay it, you can deduct it from either the quarterly sales tax owed or on your business income tax return. Which makes the other thing you advised--a good inventory based accounting system--absolutely essential. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
|
#8
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Peggie Hall wrote:
Brian Cleverly wrote: An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate" because of the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice... You *must* arrange to buy at at least wholesale due to the high markups on anything to do with our business (read "Marine")... Having been both a wholesale distributor and a mail order retailer, you're right...BUT--not everything is cheaper wholesale. The discount retail prices can often be less than dealer price (toilets are just one example)...so while I agree that getting a sales tax certificate isn't optional, it essential, it also pays to shop the discount retail prices instead of blindly buying everything wholesale. With a tax #, you can buy most things retail without also paying the sales tax...if you have to pay it, you can deduct it from either the quarterly sales tax owed or on your business income tax return. Which makes the other thing you advised--a good inventory based accounting system--absolutely essential. Absolutely agree on all points Peggy... I didn't mean to imply wholesale was the only way to go... In fact I've been known to buy via Ebay on more than one occasion when the high bid was under the best I could get elsewhere. Brian C |
|
#9
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Some examples are on my website, www.anzam.com .
Brian, that's nothing short of impressive! I'm glad you posted the work. |
|
#10
posted to rec.boats.building
|
|||
|
|||
|
Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
Excuse me. Insurance companies are profit centers. If one has paid cash
then the decision to buy hull insurance depends on one's fortitude. (Liability insurance is a different matter.) I haven't looked into the premiums for boats, but on my aircraft I figure I've saved over $5,000 over the last ten years by self-insuring. While it might have been possible to get reimbursement for hanger rash and dings, it was too painful a prospect to consider compared to paying a hundred or two for a replacement wing tip. I'd expect the hassle factor to be even higher for a home-built boat or one on which the owner/claimant had done significant work. (Pre-existing damage????) Does your insurance really inspect your boat regularly to make sure you are caring for it properly? Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "DSK" wrote in message ... snip But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a guarantee that he didn't take good care of it. snip Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Hybrid Mode
