DSK wrote:
Peggie, wasn't it a couple of years ago that you sold your boat?
Things might have changed just a little.

The new AND used boat market has always been, and will always be,
cyclic...or have you forgotten that you couldn't give a boat away in the
late '80s-early '90s? By '95, the market had recovered, but there will
always be a glut of used boats 'cuz fiberglass, unlike wood, can last
forever...by 1999, 67% of all boat sales had become used boats. The
market is depressed again, but that's the boat biz. There's an old joke
among boat builders: How do you make a million $$ in the boat building
biz? Start with 2 million and get out quick.
Which is a great value in itself, but not one that puts bread 7
peanut butter on the table.

That's not why I restored it.

There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats"
available,


Yep. Far more than the market can absorb. Most of these boats are
landfill.

More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many...
but not nearly as many as you might think belong there.


The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the
insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as
a sistership that was not storm damaged...

What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't.
The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...and if it's
properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial.


plus the 2nd-hand boat
market is in the dumper right now.

That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered...it
will again. And there's a much better market for used boats in pristine
condition than for new ones...by '99, 67% of all boat sales were used
boats...that number is only gonna get higher.

Everybody says "Pristine boats
always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always
sell for their asking price.

They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions.
When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.

I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was
properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works
and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are.

Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more
often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's
not always done right, it's done the least expensive way. I could have
achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower
quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have
done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I
also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend)
bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right
according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing!
I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than
plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in
the previous 25 years.

But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd
suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will
allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should
become a broker, not a fixer-upper.

One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right. I could never be
a successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to
hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats
worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't
in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

... Most of these boats are
landfill.


Peggie Hall wrote:
More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many...
but not nearly as many as you might think belong there.


heh heh maybe so, but I'm not the one that decides. Right now there are
a LOT of 'fixer-uppers' waiting in boatyard lots, clearly supply exceeds
demand in this particular commodity. And this past hurricane season
created so many more that there are acres of them being stored by
insurance companies pending settlement/disposal.



The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the
insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as
a sistership that was not storm damaged...

Peggie Hall wrote:
What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't.

They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do
you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't
keep a record??


The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...

I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for
getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value
of the boat. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them
you paid for the boat.

Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you
negotiate with a seller, but the problem then becomes getting insurance
without professionally correcting his punch list. Others seem to almost
function as brokers assistants. It's a highly variable profession, the
one constant is that you should definitely follow your surveyor around
like a little puppy and learn everything you possibly can from him.

... and if it's
properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial.


Yep. One of the beauties of fiberglass, it truly can be made as good as
new... the problem is that you can't tell what's under the gleaming
surface... is it just skin deep or a truly proper repair? Some details
like the filleting & tabbing etc etc give clues as to the workmanship of
the repairperson.


plus the 2nd-hand boat
market is in the dumper right now.


That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered...

True. All you need to do is wait!


Everybody says "Pristine boats
always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always
sell for their asking price.


They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions.

Bingo.
That's what I'm sayin' !!

When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.


That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.

One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a
given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down.

I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was
properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works
and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are.


Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more
often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's
not always done right, it's done the least expensive way.

That's putting it politely.

Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either.


... I could have
achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower
quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have
done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I
also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend)
bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right
according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing!

I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.

I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than
plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in
the previous 25 years.


It's certainly an educational experience. That amy be one reason why I
prefer working on boats to working on my house... the house isn't going
anywhere and it's a big PITA... the boat is an adventure waiting to happen!


But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd
suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will
allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should
become a broker, not a fixer-upper.


One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right. I could never be
a successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to
hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats
worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't
in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats.


A while back we were selling a car and I met a few of the potential
buyers. One guy looked it over, listened to me and said "Are you really
trying to keep me from buying this car?" I said 'No, I just want to make
sure you know what you're getting. There are lots of other cars you can
go buy if you want to pay more and get a free pair of rose colored
glasses.' I'm not a salesman!

DSK

DSK wrote:
They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do
you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't
keep a record??

But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. Fewer than 10%
of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less
how to search a boat's history.

The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...


I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for
getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value
of the boat.

Not so, Doug...most lenders also require a survey on most used boats.

Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them
you paid for the boat.

Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! When I bought the Trojan (for cash
btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of
things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover
it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except
for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my
insurance would be cancelled.

Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you
negotiate with a seller...

Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor.

but the problem then becomes getting insurance
without professionally correcting his punch list.

Yup.

True. All you need to do is wait!

Unless you're buyin'...

When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.


That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.

The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty
much flat in the '90s. However, I was able to get the original 1979
factory-dealer invoice for the Trojan...she had a retail list of $97k
with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and
other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had
doubled the price of a comparable new boat.

One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a
given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go
down.

That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was
done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for
$43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no
payments.

Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either.

There are pros...and there are them who call themselves pros. Ya gotta
be careful who to pick.

I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.

That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. She has sat on and/or chaired
every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's
forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I didn't have her survey
the Trojan when I bought it...she'd surveyed it for the last 3 owners,
knew every inch of it...so we spent a rainy Sunday in her office going
over her files and costing out "worst case" and finally coming up with a
fair "as is, where is" offer to the estate of the elderly man who owned
her. She didn't do the insurance survey either...she was in Savannah in
charge of risk management for Oympic racing venue. She did survey it for
the buyer when I sold it, though...and even though she's a friend, and
had bird-dogged everything I did to it...to the extent that I'd have bet
real money she couldn't find a thing that needed correction, she did!
Nothing major, but that lady doesn't even cut her friends ANY slack when
she works for someone else!

Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they
all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out
there.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records.
Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and
doesn't keep a record??


Peggie Hall wrote:
But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured.

That's a possible problem.

Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small
amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard
accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to
file a police report.

But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be
documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too
cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a
guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.



... Fewer than 10%
of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less
how to search a boat's history.


For big boats? Really? I didn't know that. Even brand new boats should
get a buyer's survey.

Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for
the boat.


Not any legitimate ethical surveyor!

Whoa there! There is no breach of any ethics, and I've heard it
happening quite a lot... that's on both coasts, too. The yacht surveyor
is not an economics expert and he's not a salesman, nor is he a repair
contractor. A surveyor is *not* an appraiser of dollar value, he is an
appraiser of the boats functional condition!

Market value goes up & down by season, by location, by the whims of
national & local economics... asking your surveyor for a hard dollar
appraisal is simply hanging numbers in mid air. Most likely he's got a
good idea, possibly better than the buyer. But the one who can tell you
what the last 5 boats of that type actually changed hands for is the
broker... but he has a vested interest in getting the higher possible
price out of the buyer.

The surveyor does not have a vested interest other than giving
information to the buyer. Assigning a value to the boat which allows the
buyer to finance or insure the boat is no breach of ethics... or even
etiquette... unless he's doing something like colluding to get a
kickback... or if he allows the buyer to remain ignorant of a safety
issue with the boat, which is his real job anyway.


... When I bought the Trojan (for cash
btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of
things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover
it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except
for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my
insurance would be cancelled.


Yep. That's not so unusual.


Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help
you negotiate with a seller...


Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor.

You have a funny idea about ethics. This is *exactly* why the buyer
should not run out and hire the surveyor recommended by the broker.




True. All you need to do is wait!


Unless you're buyin'...


heh heh an eager buyer is like a lamb being led to slaughter.

When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than
$45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market
had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.


That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.


The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty
much flat in the '90s.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but that's not quite true. Inflation was
"flat" at 2% ~ 3% which could add up over 4 years to ~ $5k, or about 1/3
of the gain in your price. Significant? IMHO it is.


with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and
other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had
doubled the price of a comparable new boat.


Same thing has happened with sailboats. But the basic designs have
gotten better, so you're getting something for the money. And keeping
them has gotten cheaper (relative to inflation) most places.


One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for
a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will
go down.


That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was
done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for
$43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no
payments.


Yep... and you had a boat that you were familiar with, equipped the way
you wanted, instead equipped the dealer wanted.

I'm all in favor of fixing up boats, I just don't think it's a practical
way to make a living except for very few people.




I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.


That would indeed be Bolling Douglas.

Yep. She's the top.

... She has sat on and/or chaired
every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's
forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn.

I'd also be interested in her opinion on whether or not surveyors are
responsible for giving buyer a cash value appraisal of the boat
(I'm cheating, she had an apprentice in tow when she surveyed our
avoid-at-all-costs boat and I heard what she told him on the subject).



Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they
all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out
there.


Well, I wouldn't go that far... a few, sure... most become surveyors
because they love boats. There are drunks and incompetents in every
field. Boat surveying is really complex and there is no way you can look
at *everything.* The first rule of thumb is that your surveyor is going
to miss something. A good surveyor (and I think most are pretty good)
are more like detectives in that they are hunting for clues about past
or impending problems, because you'd have to disassemble the boat... or
operationally test it under severe conditions... to actually see the
problem first hand.

Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.

Peggie

DSK wrote:

They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records.
Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and
doesn't keep a record??



Peggie Hall wrote:

But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured.


That's a possible problem.

Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small
amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard
accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to
file a police report.

But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be
documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too
cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a
guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.



... Fewer than 10% of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know
they should, much less how to search a boat's history.


For big boats? Really? I didn't know that. Even brand new boats should
get a buyer's survey.

Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid
for the boat.



Not any legitimate ethical surveyor!


Whoa there! There is no breach of any ethics, and I've heard it
happening quite a lot... that's on both coasts, too. The yacht surveyor
is not an economics expert and he's not a salesman, nor is he a repair
contractor. A surveyor is *not* an appraiser of dollar value, he is an
appraiser of the boats functional condition!

Market value goes up & down by season, by location, by the whims of
national & local economics... asking your surveyor for a hard dollar
appraisal is simply hanging numbers in mid air. Most likely he's got a
good idea, possibly better than the buyer. But the one who can tell you
what the last 5 boats of that type actually changed hands for is the
broker... but he has a vested interest in getting the higher possible
price out of the buyer.

The surveyor does not have a vested interest other than giving
information to the buyer. Assigning a value to the boat which allows the
buyer to finance or insure the boat is no breach of ethics... or even
etiquette... unless he's doing something like colluding to get a
kickback... or if he allows the buyer to remain ignorant of a safety
issue with the boat, which is his real job anyway.


... When I bought the Trojan (for cash btw) I needed a survey for
insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of things that had to be
corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover it for anything but
"port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except for any mechanics'
sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my insurance would be
cancelled.


Yep. That's not so unusual.


Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help
you negotiate with a seller...



Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor.


You have a funny idea about ethics. This is *exactly* why the buyer
should not run out and hire the surveyor recommended by the broker.




True. All you need to do is wait!



Unless you're buyin'...


heh heh an eager buyer is like a lamb being led to slaughter.

When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than
$45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market
had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.


That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.



The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty
much flat in the '90s.


Not trying to be a jerk here, but that's not quite true. Inflation was
"flat" at 2% ~ 3% which could add up over 4 years to ~ $5k, or about 1/3
of the gain in your price. Significant? IMHO it is.


with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and
other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had
doubled the price of a comparable new boat.


Same thing has happened with sailboats. But the basic designs have
gotten better, so you're getting something for the money. And keeping
them has gotten cheaper (relative to inflation) most places.


One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments
for a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability
will go down.



That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was
done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for
$43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no
payments.


Yep... and you had a boat that you were familiar with, equipped the way
you wanted, instead equipped the dealer wanted.

I'm all in favor of fixing up boats, I just don't think it's a practical
way to make a living except for very few people.




I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.



That would indeed be Bolling Douglas.


Yep. She's the top.

... She has sat on and/or chaired every industry standards committee
and the board of ABYC...she's forgotten more than most surveyors ever
learn.


I'd also be interested in her opinion on whether or not surveyors are
responsible for giving buyer a cash value appraisal of the boat
(I'm cheating, she had an apprentice in tow when she surveyed our
avoid-at-all-costs boat and I heard what she told him on the subject).



Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees
they all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of
charlatans out there.


Well, I wouldn't go that far... a few, sure... most become surveyors
because they love boats. There are drunks and incompetents in every
field. Boat surveying is really complex and there is no way you can look
at *everything.* The first rule of thumb is that your surveyor is going
to miss something. A good surveyor (and I think most are pretty good)
are more like detectives in that they are hunting for clues about past
or impending problems, because you'd have to disassemble the boat... or
operationally test it under severe conditions... to actually see the
problem first hand.

Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Peggie Hall wrote:

Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.

Peggie


Uh oh. I hope I'm not in trouble

DSK

Excuse me. Insurance companies are profit centers. If one has paid cash
then the decision to buy hull insurance depends on one's fortitude.
(Liability insurance is a different matter.)

I haven't looked into the premiums for boats, but on my aircraft I figure
I've saved over $5,000 over the last ten years by self-insuring. While it
might have been possible to get reimbursement for hanger rash and dings, it
was too painful a prospect to consider compared to paying a hundred or two
for a replacement wing tip. I'd expect the hassle factor to be even higher
for a home-built boat or one on which the owner/claimant had done
significant work. (Pre-existing damage????)

Does your insurance really inspect your boat regularly to make sure you are
caring for it properly?

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"DSK" wrote in message
...
snip
But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be documented.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was
too cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost
a guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.

snip

Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.


Peggie



Peggie and Doug, and to all that have added...

This has been fantastic! I've forwarded this thread to my cousin
Jerry, hoping he'll respond when he gets back from vacation. I'm no
boat builder, but I've learned a lot from this thread. I'd wish you all
could keep adding. after all, this IS a NEWSGROUP isn't it???

Wasted bandwidth? LOL! At least theres no 340+ posts on trashing
jet-ski'rs!

Tim

wrote:

Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.



Peggie




Peggie and Doug, and to all that have added...

This has been fantastic! I've forwarded this thread to my cousin
Jerry, hoping he'll respond when he gets back from vacation. I'm no
boat builder, but I've learned a lot from this thread. I'd wish you all
could keep adding. after all, this IS a NEWSGROUP isn't it???

Wasted bandwidth? LOL! At least theres no 340+ posts on trashing
jet-ski'rs!

Tim


Now that all the theorists have had a say, I'd like to jump in with a few words.

I've been doing what your cousin is thinking of doing for 10 years now.

Is it a viable proposition ? Not if you intend it to be your only source of
income, and certainly not if you have no prior experience in the work.

I've kept at it because I love the work, and I am officially retired, so the
boat work is secondary income.

"Word of mouth" has generated a lot of customer repair work, which is nice, but
it takes time away from the rebuild projects.

When I resell a boat I generally get around double current market price for it,
*AND* I have a waiting list of buyers. BTW, I specialize in FRP sailboats.

Even at that, I consider myself lucky if I clear actual expenses over the life
of the rebuild. I say "actual" expenses because I do not draw pay, so my labor
is not accounted for.

One has to be extremely careful in choosing a boat to rebuild. It has to be a
popular brand/model and it has to be one that requires the least amount of work
possible consistent with the purchase price. I have been unlucky just once and
that was a boat I intended to keep for my own use (eventually cut up for
landfill). Some of the cost was recovered in selling off parts from it, but I
still lost money overall.

One must do a first class job, otherwise word will get around that your jobs are
slipshod and you'll quickly lose business. With all my rebuilds (as opposed to
repair jobs) I strip to a bare hull and rebuild from the ground up. All
electrical is renewed, as is all plumbing, and running rigging. Every fastener
in the boat is discarded and replaced with new. All tabbing is renewed and
every manufacturing defect (and there are always a lot of them) is corrected as
a matter of course. Any other item that I consider is past its prime, or that I
can not refurbish, is replaced with new. Usually the boat receives a full paint job.

Some examples are on my website, www.anzam.com .

An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate" because of
the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice... You *must* arrange to
buy at at least wholesale due to the high markups on anything to do with our
business (read "Marine")... Certainly you might be able to arrange some small
discount for things like fasteners but you won't get a meaningful discount on
higher ticket items unless you can prove you are in the business and the first
item of proof requested is your "Resale Number". Usually, a pre-requisite to
obtaining a resale number is having a business license.

Taxation implications are such that you have to have a reasonable accounting
system in operation and if you set that up correctly, doing the State Sales Tax
reporting is not an item. Just make certain you keep absolute track of sales
tax received so you don't spend it on other items.

Financing the business can be a problem. When rebuilding for resale you have to
allow for the fact that you'll be putting out money for at least 12 months
before you see any income. Fortunately, I am able to take advantage of the
continual zero APR offers I get from card companies which allows me to change to
a new card every 12 months and never have to pay interest.

If your cousin cares to contact me direct I'll be more than happy to answer any
specific questions he might have.

Regards,

Brian C

In article , DSK
wrote:

They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records.
Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and
doesn't keep a record??


Peggie Hall wrote:
But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured.

That's a possible problem.

Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small
amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard
accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to
file a police report.

But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be
documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too
cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a
guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.

Strongly disagree. Take 2 different scenarios.

A daysailer. Who bothers to insure one? I don't insure mine. Ditto
small power vessels etc.

A blue water sailboat. To get insurance on one is difficult at all, and
from what I've been told comes with a list of restrictions WRT crew
numbers, allowable passage times/places etc etc.

Better to spend the money on more safety gear, better anchors etc.

PDW