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Where is hull design going?
It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides
being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article .... very interesting. "Marty" wrote in message . .. Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it before, just can't remember where right now... bowgus wrote: Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting articles ... http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/...els/index.html "gjoyce" wrote in message m... I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction. I've been cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering what you designer-types might think. Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings, propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future? Thanks Gary P. Joyce |
getting it on paper
Funny, I was thinking that the only 15 ft boat
I can recall that has a cabin is a Potter. Your comment about the free computer programs coincides exactly with my experience. They almost work. I've tried working with cad and programs like Carlsons Hull, but have never had much success with them. Sure, Cad type programs work great, if you know how to use them. Personally I prefer to manually draw a lines plan, then loft it, then build. I've only actually done this, start to finish, once. Everything else I've ever built was from an existing design that I modified. I've drawn a lot of small boat designs though. I just like to work larger than a little screen will let me. I can stand back and look at it and site down a line from the side. Why go the computer route? Ok ok..there are a lot of reasons, I know. My previous suggestion...the one that Per jumped on...to bring a file to a computer router guy would not be my first choice. I assume this boat is plywood. Yes? That makes a big diference because the work of drawing it, either manually or on a computer is simplified. I was more interested in the path that your thinking might take during the design process. Something like a flow chart. A graphic line with stops along the way. If you can map that out, mabey copy or repeat someone else's path, then you might get to where you want. If you want to bush wack thru the pucker brush, well, you'll get bloody in the process. If you want to email me any of the scanned sketches, I'd be happy to offer my 2cents. William R. Watt wrote: stevej ) writes: William R. Watt wrote: The best ones have the simplest set of essential information. Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY. But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why can't you draw it? ... So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"? Is it to sell the design? You mentioned that you don't plan on building it. Who will build it? I see plenty of amateur boat building projects on the Internet but rarely an amateur boat designing project. I can only think of one for a one sheet boat and Barend Migchelsen's geometric analysis of a dory. I thought I'd try to design a boat and show the process on my website. It's a boat I'd like to build and sail but that's not practical for me to do. The boat is kind of unique so I'm starting from scratch. The closest boat to it I'm aware of is the 15 ft West Wight Potter. This is a first for me. As part of the project I'm using some free computer programs off the net and hope to write up some guidance on how and when to use these particular programs as well. I'm using three because no one gives me enough information. Although the computer programs produce line drawings from tables of offsets I'm not happy with the way they smooth the curves as I manipulate the offsets. I don't know how to get any of them to draw a flat run. Those are important because I hope to use the numbers one program puts out for cutting the plywood panels. I've scanned sketches and captured screen images. If all goes well I hope to take photos of models and scan them too. If it's ever finished I won't be selling plans. People could use the design for free as long as they don't use it for profit. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
getting it on paper
Well Per, I was just thinking.
I wrote that I COULD IMAGINE someone doing it. I didn't say it made economical sense. I'm not sure what you are talking about with this 3d and foam stuff. William's boat is plywood (I think) That means that after he has worked out all of the panels and reduced them to 2 dimensions, they could be cut on a computer driven router. I know little about this and prefer to keep my boat building simple. I've tried to use computer programs to draw and then build a boat. It ain't easy. I've drawn lots of hulls from tables of offsets though and lofted a few. I am currently building perhaps the simplest, and mabey the most seaworthy design ever, a greenland style skin on frame kayak. everything is in units of fathoms, cubits and fingers, which is different for everybody. Building from instinct and tradition also works and I like the idea that I don't need to calculate anything or use any numbers larger than 3. And you have to admit that for its intended use, a greenland kayak is a pretty successful...no, let me rephrase that...an AWESOME design. SteveJ Per Corell wrote: Hi stevej wrote in message ... William R. Watt wrote: The best ones have the simplest set of essential information. Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY. But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why can't you draw it? I tend to take an existing design, and change it. This works out a lot of the basic stuff, like ergonomics and scantlings easily and then it can be tweaked to adapt to whatever. Everyone learns from everyone else who succeeds in putting their work out there. I approach boat design through the drawings of others. If one wants to build something that is as close to the designer's idea, a drawing works well in looking at all of the details. Often, after studying drawings of a boat, I am surprised when I see the boat actually in the water. Not that the boat is any different then what I know the drawing says it should be, but there is something else that comes through that is not in the drawing. Some people say boats are alive. I'd say some are more alive than others. Some people approach design instinctively. They visualize a design, then try to build it. Others try to choose a set of parameters and then design a structure to deal with it. There is a linear path that either approach takes. They vary depending on where the designer wants to go. When I taught myself to draw boats full size (loft), I realised how much easier it was to then build the boat. The drawing gave me a ready made pattern for every piece in the boat. Mabey it could be looked at this way. In order to communicate your idea to somebody else, you have a number of choices. Let's call them your Media choices. So far you have used the written word to communicate your idea. Other Media choices might be photographs of the boat model. Drawing would be another. Video might be another. I notice that people who sell boat designs usually use drawings. That doesn't mean they have to. I can imagine selling a design for a kit that has no drawings at all. For instance, you display photos of your design...the actual boat. People download a bunch of files..binary code and save it to a floppy. They bring the disk to their local "guy with a computer driven router" He cuts the design for the guy and the guy assembles it based on a sequence of written instructions telling him how and in what order. The advantages of this method are obvious. No paper..shipping...etc. The disadvantages are that there might not be a "guy with a computer driven router" willing to do it. But another hidden disadvantage is that many people are used to drawings and won't like paying for a "computer file". So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"? Is it to sell the design? You mentioned that you don't plan on building it. Who will build it? Well if you think it is an idear to ask a 3D router the cost of a small impire, 4 engineers the cost of a farm and using a foam block the price of a Volkswagon to produce a 20 feet boat , you are wrong. Atleast for 20 years you have had the oppotunity to router 3D, then why do you think it shuld be an idear to make a plug in foam when after that, you need to sand and fill, then do that form that will make your one boat ; do you realise what this will cost ? You suggest foto's ----- what is a foto other than a "drawing" added perspective, but without measures and showing no sections no water lines no data for the router; how would you even translate data-less graphic into router data accurate down one hundred of a millimeter. The only N.C. technikes that acturly offer a way to make this work is 2D cutting of sheet material. What you don't realise is, that the lofting you learned is what modern CAD work ontop of. That the CAD program already "know" lofting as that is what the CAD program build ontop of. --------- That's why a lot of the part result of a Loft process is not there to se, in a CAD program ; the program alrady worked further than that, it already used the offset tables , the collum and row measurements to acturly put the frame on the screen ; how do you othervise think a rib could be there, if the CAD program isn't already acturly by graphic showing the bloody stoneage tools in a much more effective and accurate way, --------- beside when you messed that much with tradisional boat drawings, why havn't you realised as anyone else, that the old methods show the foults when you realy build. Have you even realised why CAD is better to show a spline, ----- have you ever tried to change the front or aft of a vessel on a tradisional set of planes in 3 projections , and then tried the same with a CAD system, as _then_ you will know. Do it, ------ make the experience as how others had to build boat after boat, develobing the technikes and skills, ---- test it and show the result. Still if you just realise that they project planes and go to Mars based on 3D CAD , you will also realise that with a true 3D drawing you do not need any model , unless you also question they ever reached the moon , as you _can not_ produce a 3D drawing , unless everything work in real. You suggest spending a million producing a small boat from some foto's, but don't realise that for new technology to be new, it must be new and different. Beside develobed by somone with just a bit experienc and the ability a lot participant in this group hate, the ability to develob new, true new. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/ Per Corell |
getting it on paper
I clipped Marty's and added them below because I think
it fits in to what we are talking about. "Rufus has some good points there. I happen to work with CAD programs (you have to make a living somehow) and while some are better than others, they all have a learning period. I can "read and write" with various CAD programs, but for projects at home (and even initial designs at work) I very often use pad and pencil. For initial design it is very fast and cheap, provided you have an idea what you want to accomplish. If you have no idea what you want to accomplish, even the best software won't help you. For occasional use CAD programs are too cumbersome and expensive, thinking about things like AutoCad (very user unfriendly, and in my opinion not much better than a drawing board), Solidworks (no Nurbs splines), CadKey (Silly file structuring), I would say: if you are not going to use it very frequently, don't bother. You can also do a websearch, there are a few free cad or design programs available, can't remember any right now, but I know they are there, because I have tried a few a while ago. Can give you a feel for the frustration of an expensive CAD program... So, here is my plea for the pad and pencil from the dollarstore for Number One Design Tool, lol" William R. Watt wrote: stevej ) writes: William R. Watt wrote: The best ones have the simplest set of essential information. Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY. But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why can't you draw it? ... So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"? Is it to sell the design? You mentioned that you don't plan on building it. Who will build it? I see plenty of amateur boat building projects on the Internet but rarely an amateur boat designing project. I can only think of one for a one sheet boat and Barend Migchelsen's geometric analysis of a dory. I thought I'd try to design a boat and show the process on my website. It's a boat I'd like to build and sail but that's not practical for me to do. The boat is kind of unique so I'm starting from scratch. The closest boat to it I'm aware of is the 15 ft West Wight Potter. This is a first for me. As part of the project I'm using some free computer programs off the net and hope to write up some guidance on how and when to use these particular programs as well. I'm using three because no one gives me enough information. Although the computer programs produce line drawings from tables of offsets I'm not happy with the way they smooth the curves as I manipulate the offsets. I don't know how to get any of them to draw a flat run. Those are important because I hope to use the numbers one program puts out for cutting the plywood panels. I've scanned sketches and captured screen images. If all goes well I hope to take photos of models and scan them too. If it's ever finished I won't be selling plans. People could use the design for free as long as they don't use it for profit. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Where is hull design going?
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 00:48:14 GMT, "bowgus" wrote:
It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article ... very interesting. "Marty" wrote in message ... Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it before, just can't remember where right now... bowgus wrote: Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting articles ... http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/...els/index.html Unrecognized features? It trades sailing ability for the ability to sit upright when the tide goes down. If you don't need the latter, it is all downside. The same hull with a single fin keel incorporating the same lead will always sail better, unless it is a horribly incompetent design. If the only place you can keep your boat dries out at low tide, then you really want a twin keel.. Otherwise, why even consider it? Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab |
Where is hull design going?
Terry Sprang says:
Solar cell jetpump ultralightweight nesting hydrofoil speedboats, of course. Pop bottles taped together, polyglass / used nylon stocking (pantyhose), cardboard core reinforced plastic "boat" style kite / airplanes using hydrogen "cold steam" sculling oolau drive engines, assisted by the aero-bouyant hydrogen gas bag / fuselage, towing water ballasted keels. Didn't you know? Step away from the bong, Terry - NOW!! ;-) Steve |
getting it on paper
Hi
stevej wrote in message ... Well Per, I was just thinking. I wrote that I COULD IMAGINE someone doing it. I didn't say it made economical sense. I'm not sure what you are talking about with this 3d and foam stuff. William's boat is plywood (I think) That means that after he has worked out all of the panels and reduced them to 2 dimensions, they could be cut on a computer driven router. I know little about this and prefer to keep my boat building simple. I've tried to use computer programs to draw and then build a boat. It ain't easy. I've drawn lots of hulls from tables of offsets though and lofted a few. I am currently building perhaps the simplest, and mabey the most seaworthy design ever, a greenland style skin on frame kayak. everything is in units of fathoms, cubits and fingers, which is different for everybody. Building from instinct and tradition also works and I like the idea that I don't need to calculate anything or use any numbers larger than 3. And you have to admit that for its intended use, a greenland kayak is a pretty successful...no, let me rephrase that...an AWESOME design. SteveJ Well that\s exactly how Cyber-Boats are drawn, ------- what you get when you ownload one of the nice Cyber-Boat designs, is the actural 3D model so you can work on with your computer and get over the first difficult steps. Buat also you get the exact building Jig in full scale on paper, and the unfolded panels or planks that fit exactly onto the building Jig , ---- even for the Lapstrake hulls. Those designs is produced with my in-house software that don't offer just 6 ribs or sections as some of the free download stuff do, but a hull that is first projected with splines , then as there is no use for Splines after the ends meet the Splines is divided into maby 200 small 3D Lines in a computer mesh entity the length of the hull, and maby only 4 strait lines the other way ; guess you se the gadged, ----- compleatly smooth and accurate the length of the hull and the exact 4 panels from keel up, the other way. Then the 3D Model is unfolded and 4 exact panels or 3 if that's what you asked the program , is drawn flat out on your screen and even you can't se it, one millimeter in the drawing is one drawing unit , so when the print shop get the AutoCAD drawing you get all pieces unfolded drawn on cheap paper in full scale. -------- If you want another check, you just add a circle ontop the drawing in a specific color, and check if that one have the measures and is compleatly round. Go to Cyber-Boat old site where you will se the process described as how this worked 10 or 12 years ago, but please remember that just becaurse they build boats with the old methods for centuries , this don't mean that somone that builded loads of hulls ,can't invent a method that work better and esp. better than forcing the old rigid methods into computer code, ---- realy the result not if it is different than the conservative method count. Just check how architects just written the old settled methods into computer code ; it run faster and more accurate, but it is still the same old Lego-Mind , making block on block counting each window , ------ but not the creativity anyone else than architects expect. The same with boatsbuilding ; you read a group where the designs offered is the same 70 year old designs, left over from a time where a boat was somthing you made for the kids , from the leftover scrap plywood and Popular Mechanics plans ; you think that is boatsbuilding ? Well it's often craft in a quality that a boatbuilder would not accept. Then even the technology put forth in this group is what was here 8 years ago ; Do you realy think this wabbeling set of ribs ; http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/models/scale-4.jpg is a better set of ribs to build on and place panels on than this ; http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/dwg/main3.jpg ???? Well , Cyber-Boat was the first to interduce full-Scale plans in this group so do you realy think that is possible without knowing what boats building is about, ------- still after the harasment in this particular group I decided to stay with offering just the ready designs that was the result of develobing software ontop my life long experience building boats, and forget about publishing the software then you Jokers can stay with your boxes. Per Corell |
Where is hull design going?
"bowgus" ) writes:
It's not new ... but it seems to have some unrecognized features ... besides being able to park in the mud and stay upright. My neighbour up the way had a twin keel ... I thought it kindof oddball ... but having read the article ... very interesting. someone has been advertising a 21ft twin keel boat in our local sailing newsgroup, ott.re.sailing. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
getting it on paper
stevej ) writes:
Funny, I was thinking that the only 15 ft boat I can recall that has a cabin is a Potter. Your comment about the free computer programs coincides exactly with my experience. They almost work. I've used 3 computer programs so far. My own free skiff program to get the rocker and flare to put the stem heel and transom at the load waterline. The free Blue Peter program to include the cabin in the table of offsets, automatically adjust trim to balance the hull, and then compute the hydrostatic numbers. The free Carlson program for the shapes of the plywood hull panels. I'm certain that's easier than computing the numbers and "unfolding" the plywood panels by hand, for me anyway. Did I mention the programs are free? :) I agree about the learning curve. None of the programs I've used is particuallry well documented, the Carlson being the worst, in spite of a helpful guide written by a user. Still, none of the "pencil and paper" recommendations in this newsgroup has recommended the purchase of an ERASER, a serious omission IMHO. I suspect they also purchase a set of those plastic curves. I know I'd need a set. I was more interested in the path that your thinking might take during the design process. Something like a flow chart. A graphic line with stops along the way. If you can map that out, mabey copy or repeat someone else's path, then you might get to where you want. Yes, yes. Project managment. I have a copy of MS Project 98 which I considered employing to illustrate a small boat design and contruction project. But I don't think there would be much interest among amateur boatbuilders making small boats, 'way too much overhead, 'way too much like being at work. A simple "todo" list will do. It's mostly for large complex projects. However to illustrate the steps in designing and building a small boat, how some things can be done simultaneously, and how much time you have to allow for the paint to dry, it might be useful. I don't know engough about boatbuildign to illustrate more than a very small project. If you want to email me any of the scanned sketches, I'd be happy to offer my 2cents. I've rather rashly begun putting interim results on my webpage under "Boats" and "15 foot sailboat". The text is full of errors and I just re-wrote a whole section. Nothing more than a rough draft at this point. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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