DSK wrote in message ...
&
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message ...

Thanks both for the excellent advice clearly based on extensive briny
experience.

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm'; &
particularly the ability to quickly self-right in the event of
capsize. According to Czeslaw A. Marchaj
in 'Seaworthiness : The Forgotten Factor' the "point of vanishing
stability" et.al. of most modern yacht designs is woefully inadequate
- deficiencies he attributes to the pervasive influence of
International Offshore Rules & the 'floating gin-palace' ethos of the
charter-boat industry, on modern yacht design & construction. This
observation appears to have been borne-out empirically by the 1988
Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race http://www.radford-yacht.com/stablty1.html

As a natural pessimist, I want to build the 'ultimate-unsinkable'
craft, which will weather the worst that the sea can inflict;
however, I get the distinct impression leafing through all the myriad
yachting magazines, that most boats out there are little more than
flimsy eye-candy. Just another prettified escapist consumer commodity
designed more to part you from your hard-earned lucre, than to be
truly "worthy of the sea".

Yet on the other hand I continually read accounts of wildly improbable
craft -http://www.famoussmallboats.com/ - criss-crossing the Atlantic
& Pacific with apparent ease. All quite confusing really.

The Perfect Storm was in the North Atlantic in October -- in winter, in
weather terms. It's no accident that "Winter North Atlantic" has its own
loadline, and that it's the one that requires the most freeboard of all.
And, although both the book and the movie have obscured reality somewhat
(the movie much more than the book), it appears the Andrea Gail had a number
of seaworthiness problems.

If you choose your times and places with some intelligence -- stay out of
hurricane areas, the Winter North Atlantic, the Southern Ocean, then you're
very unlikely to face survival weather. Many circumnavigators will tell you
that they never saw serious weather on their entire trip -- our highest wind
speed was around 42 knots.

I, too, am a natural pessimist. People who go to sea should understand that
Mother Nature does not suffer fools lightly. But pessimism should not bring
paranoia. As I said earlier in this thread, designing and equipping a boat
for the worst possible weather is expensive and unnecessary unless you
really intend to go out at times and places where such weather is really an
issue. Your "ultimate-unsinkable craft, which will weather the worst that
the sea can inflict" is a wonderful thing to think about, but I wouldn't
want to sail it, as it would likely be slow, uncomfortable, and difficult
for its crew. I'd rather choose my times and places and stay away from
anything anywhere near "the worst the sea can inflict". I'm pretty sure
that's a realistic goal for all except masochists and thrill seekers.

As for the quality of production boats, there are production boats that I
wouldn't want to take out of sight of land and others that I would happy
with almost anywhere, although not at all times of year. You pay your money
and, by and large, you get what you've paid for. And, BTW, they're not hard
to tell apart at the boat shows -- if you see two boats about the same size
and weight and one has fittings -- turnbuckles, for example -- noticeably
heavier than the other, you can guess which one I'd rather be aboard.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Peter Ward" wrote in message
m...
DSK wrote in message
...
&
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...

Thanks both for the excellent advice clearly based on extensive briny
experience.

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm'; &
particularly the ability to quickly self-right in the event of
capsize. According to Czeslaw A. Marchaj
in 'Seaworthiness : The Forgotten Factor' the "point of vanishing
stability" et.al. of most modern yacht designs is woefully inadequate
- deficiencies he attributes to the pervasive influence of
International Offshore Rules & the 'floating gin-palace' ethos of the
charter-boat industry, on modern yacht design & construction. This
observation appears to have been borne-out empirically by the 1988
Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race http://www.radford-yacht.com/stablty1.html

As a natural pessimist, I want to build the 'ultimate-unsinkable'
craft, which will weather the worst that the sea can inflict;
however, I get the distinct impression leafing through all the myriad
yachting magazines, that most boats out there are little more than
flimsy eye-candy. Just another prettified escapist consumer commodity
designed more to part you from your hard-earned lucre, than to be
truly "worthy of the sea".

Yet on the other hand I continually read accounts of wildly improbable
craft -http://www.famoussmallboats.com/ - criss-crossing the Atlantic
& Pacific with apparent ease. All quite confusing really.

"Peter Ward" wrote in message
m...

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm'; &
particularly the ability to quickly self-right in the event of
capsize. According to Czeslaw A. Marchaj
in 'Seaworthiness : The Forgotten Factor' the "point of vanishing
stability" et.al. of most modern yacht designs is woefully inadequate
- deficiencies he attributes to the pervasive influence of
International Offshore Rules & the 'floating gin-palace' ethos of the
charter-boat industry, on modern yacht design & construction. This
observation appears to have been borne-out empirically by the 1988
Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race http://www.radford-yacht.com/stablty1.html

In the Sydney-Hobart, the main lesson is don't get caught where the
conditions are bad. The analysis showed that it didn't really matter
what type of boat you were in - heavy narrow boats, light beamy ones,
and everything in between got capsized.. But the boats in a certain
area, the area with the worst conditions, were most likely to capsize.
John Rousmaniere in his excellent book Fastnet Force Ten came
to a somewhat similar conclusion about the Fastnet - that boats
in a certain area were more likely to be capsized. That doesn't
validate poor design, but it tells me that if you are in the wrong
place at the wrong time, it doesn't matter what kind of boat you're
in. Personally, Id recommend a boat with a limit of positive
stability of greater than 120 degrees, with all the cruising gear
included in the calculation (which is probably not the design
condition). And make sure your boat is ISAF Category 1 or
zero compliant.

Design is one element of seaworthiness, but the crew (and luck)
is equally or more important. Consider that the boat that won
the 98 Sydney-Hobart was a light 35 footer that consistently does
well in that race and you'll start to get a feeling that those
guys could probably sail a crappy old raft through just about
anything. And it sounds like you've read the books about the
guys with no experience who cross oceans, so you can see
the part that lady luck plays as well.

More books that would probably be of interest to you:
Heavy Weather Sailing has lots of good info, including chapters
about desingn features. The Drag Device Data Book if you're
really serious about going offshore. Fastnet Force 10. There's
also a book about the Queen's Birthday Storm that hit a
bunch of cruisers in the South Pacific, but I can't remember
the name right now.

As a natural pessimist, I want to build the 'ultimate-unsinkable'
craft, which will weather the worst that the sea can inflict;
however, I get the distinct impression leafing through all the myriad
yachting magazines, that most boats out there are little more than
flimsy eye-candy. Just another prettified escapist consumer commodity
designed more to part you from your hard-earned lucre, than to be
truly "worthy of the sea".

Well, there are good boats and bad boats. There are quite a few
seaworthy ones available for good prices. Some of them are
lightweight flyers, and some are heavy tanks. It's hard to make a boat
unsinkable but it is possible to minimize the probability. Watertight
subdivision is one way to do it, but you will find that only the Amel
boats come from the factory that way.

Ramblin' Matt

"Peter Ward" wrote in message
m...

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm';

If it's The Perfect Storm you want to survive then clearly you need a
Westsail 32. A W32 DID survive the Perfect Storm. Unmanned no-less and, as
far as I last heard is still sailing.

Yet another Steve

Yes, but the Westsail 32 earned the sobriquet "WetSnail". A tough boat, but
not my first choice for anything.



--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Stephen Yoder" wrote in message
thlink.net...



"Peter Ward" wrote in message
m...

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm';

If it's The Perfect Storm you want to survive then clearly you need a
Westsail 32. A W32 DID survive the Perfect Storm. Unmanned no-less and,
as
far as I last heard is still sailing.

Yet another Steve

On 10 Nov 2003 17:35:40 -0800, (Peter Ward)
wrote:

DSK wrote in message ...
&
"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message ...

Thanks both for the excellent advice clearly based on extensive briny
experience.

I guess I was thinking of seaworthiness in the fairly narrow sense of
being able to survive something like 'The Perfect Storm'; &
particularly the ability to quickly self-right in the event of
capsize. According to Czeslaw A. Marchaj
in 'Seaworthiness : The Forgotten Factor' the "point of vanishing
stability" et.al. of most modern yacht designs is woefully inadequate
- deficiencies he attributes to the pervasive influence of
International Offshore Rules & the 'floating gin-palace' ethos of the
charter-boat industry, on modern yacht design & construction. This
observation appears to have been borne-out empirically by the 1988
Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race http://www.radford-yacht.com/stablty1.html

The International Offshore Rule did produce some nasty boats. It
passed out of use in the late 1980s. It is only of concern if you
might buy an IOR boat used.

Marchaj's polemic flails about with generalizations that don't really
tell you anything useful. All boat designs are compromises that juggle
conflicting desires. He seems to want naval architecture to stop at
some preconceived "golden age."

It doesn't work like that. A good (not genius) naval architect,
knowing the specific requirements of a client, should be able to
improve an existing design, even from a "genius" architect, if it was
not designed for the same detailed requirements.

If you buy a boat designed to sell at a boat show to nonsailors, you
should realize that the compromises may be tilted toward interior
accommodations at the expense of sailing ability. If you buy a
modest-sized boat that is mainly designed for racing around the buoys,
you may not be able to stand up in the cabin.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab