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Resin Injection into soft wood
Hi,
I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. Are there other options for replacing rotten ribs and frames other than traditional sawed or steam bent? (from the inside) Is there any truth to this process or just more smoke and mirrors? Thanks for the help on this question and the earlier one about boat repairs. Marshall |
Resin Injection into soft wood
MarshallE wrote:
Hi, I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. Are there other options for replacing rotten ribs and frames other than traditional sawed or steam bent? (from the inside) Is there any truth to this process or just more smoke and mirrors? Thing to remember about wood: From compost ye come and to compost ye shall return. It's just a matter of time. Lew |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Unless it's encapsulated in amber.
Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "Lew Hodgett" wrote in message . net... MarshallE wrote: I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. Are there other options for replacing rotten ribs and frames other than traditional sawed or steam bent? (from the inside) Is there any truth to this process or just more smoke and mirrors? Thing to remember about wood: From compost ye come and to compost ye shall return. It's just a matter of time. Lew |
Resin Injection into soft wood
There are some low viscosity epoxy products on the market that claim to
restore rotten wood. A few of them do restore the compression strength but do not help the bending strength. They are great for salvaging antique porch columns, thresholds and window sills but totally useless for boat repair where the stresses are not all in compression. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "MarshallE" wrote in message om... Hi, I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. Are there other options for replacing rotten ribs and frames other than traditional sawed or steam bent? (from the inside) Is there any truth to this process or just more smoke and mirrors? Thanks for the help on this question and the earlier one about boat repairs. Marshall |
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 22:25:12 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote: There are some low viscosity epoxy products on the market that claim to restore rotten wood. A few of them do restore the compression strength but do not help the bending strength. They are great for salvaging antique porch columns, thresholds and window sills but totally useless for boat repair where the stresses are not all in compression. yep. Let's put that solution in the smoke and mirrors column. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 22:25:12 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore" wrote: There are some low viscosity epoxy products on the market that claim to restore rotten wood. A few of them do restore the compression strength but do not help the bending strength. They are great for salvaging antique porch columns, thresholds and window sills but totally useless for boat repair where the stresses are not all in compression. yep. Let's put that solution in the smoke and mirrors column. Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
There have been products around since the 1950's which are good for treating planking but may not have the stength for ribs and beams. However you can always build in structural reinforcement with glass fibre, metal, wood, plywood, or some combination and have a repair which is stonger, more rot resistent, and more durable than the original. For example you can cut out the rot, drill holes, insert metal rods, and build up with resin or in some cases cement mortar. It all depends on what parts you need to repair. Watch the weight when replacing wood with non-wood substitutes. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote
Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. From an engineering standpoint, Glenn's comments are 100% accurate. Epoxy saturation restores much of the strength in compression of the original wood, some of the shear strangth, and very littl of the strength in tension (which is wood's strongest point). Glenn Ashmore wrote: Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting Note- in the original part... it does little or nothing to stop leaks and prevent further rot around the margins of the saturated area! .... but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. This correspnds exactly with my experience. I've seen mooring cleats pull up out of rot-doctored decks which were hard as a rock from the epoxy. When fresh out of the military and needing something to do, a friend and I "restored" (or butchered, depending on who you talk to) an old classic racing yacht. The planking was sound but the structure and deck was spongy. We built a 6 point cradle with shaped frames, epoxy saturated much of the interior structure, and laid up an internal truss mimicking the original ribs & floors with some diagonals added. The boat had no stiffness or strength in the hull until we added fiberglass cloth along the truss members. After that, it was very strong & we raced the heck out of it. A few classic boat purists were upset at what we'd done, two or three even threatened us. But the boat would have become a mulch pile and we did this work in about 3 months instead of seven years to rebuild it the "right" way. YMMV Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Resin Injection into soft wood
P.C. Ford ) writes: Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. PC Ford has 30 years of experience with resins? Shocking! Is nothing sacred? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
I have been reading about a process of restoring rotten wood by soaking
resin into the wood making it as good as new or better. I am not an expert in this area. I just read a publication from West System about making minor and major repairs on fiberglass boats. It mentioned about methods of restoring wooden elements in a fiberglass boat. Their suggestion is to warm the wooden part and the mixed epoxy to allow the epoxy to flow better and deep into the wooden element. Nevertheless, they still recommend people to replace the wooden element instead of using epoxy to "fix" it under some situations (I don't remember what the situations are; I "guess" something like too many areas need to be repaired or the area is a critical structural element). You may want to get a copy of that publication for $3 (I bought mine from West Marine) to see what they have recommended. West System makes money by selling epoxy. If they ask people to replace the wood (under some situations) instead of using their products, I would think that they are onto something. Jay Chan |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Hi
It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"DSK" wrote in message
... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is unsuitable for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these assumptions are correct. I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote: "P.C. Ford" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 10:11:19 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:KJ82f.215$Kp4.88@lakeread08... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. Well, I am making observations from experience. The family company manages a number (like over 1,000) older single family and duplex rentals, many of which have wood porches. We use a variety of epoxies to restore rotten porch columns where the local Historic Preservation committee insists that restoration match the original. We have found that it works fine for trim and column bases but will not hold up on railings, floor planks and other parts than may be loaded in bending. Epoxy stabilizes the wood and prevents further rotting but it has much lower tensile strength than the wood and is considerably less resiliant. Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task. -- Glenn Ashmore Our experiential data conflicts. In the end, we'll each go with what works for us... probably with equal confidence. Your last statement above is nonsense in the real world though. It looks nice in type. Huh? If you have any proof whatsoever that epoxy treated rotten wood regains strength please share it. This certainly goes against 30 years of experience as a boatwright spcializing in restoration. We'll wait right here. Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring boats? You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid" and "rediculous".....to use your words. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:07:49 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: Whadya want? Names and adresses so you can go check? The statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." is a stupid statement to make. What task? I know repairs that are 25 years old which are still up to the task... They are in various places where it is crucial and the repairs hold up even under the harshest weather and water conditions. I still say the statement is rediculous. Sheesh... boatwright? Do you ever take those boats out? Do you have any experience on the water? Why yes I do. On sail and power. Do you have any experience restoring boats? Why yes I do. Both sail and power. Woodworking and fiberglass. Using hand tools and power tools. If you count my dads boats that were the first I worked on, it has been over 40 years. Do I get a prize or something? You have swallowed boatshow handout propaganda whole. That's "stupid" and "rediculous".....to use your words. Ok... explain how I have done so. I haven't been to a boatshow in over 15 years. I'm talking real boats and real repairs. On Chesapeake Bay work boats, no less. Boats that go out at least 300 days a year. To say that a given repair method (especially the one being discussed) is "not up to the task" is utter bull****. It implies that a given method is not suited for any task. Do you believe this? Who is being rediculous? It ain't me. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
And I stand by what I said. I doubt that there is anyone on this newsgroup
working with timbers and anyone relying on soaking a rotten frame or stringer with Rot Doctor is asking for trouble. The only way they will get the same strength is to replace it, sister it or glass it after stabilizing it. A sound piece of clear fir has a tensile strength of about 12,600 PSI. CPES, the most commercially available epoxy wood stabilizer, has a tensile strength of around 4,500 PSI and, for fairly obvious reasons, there is no ANSI standard tensile strength of rotten wood. Even Rot Doctor recommends glass reinforcement for members subject to tension or shear. Rot also occurs primarily at the joint with another member. On an interior member like a frame or stringer that is usually the outboard side which is normally subject to the greatest tension. Unless the tensile strength is restored in one way or another the treated member will be a weak point and risks becoming the starting point for failure. Please pardon a short rant: I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job. I would guess that about half the participants in this news group are first time boat builders/restorers looking for advice. We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros so it is up to those of us with a little experience to guide them. That is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. End rant: -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message ... "DSK" wrote in message ... "Ed Edelenbos" wrote Hmmm.... I guess it must be different for working people. I've known several boat yard operators and pile drivers who use this method (for their own boats). Actually, the most common way is to use regular epoxy resin and thin it with acetone to the right consistency. I know of a couple rib repairs that are about 25 years old and still in place. It depends very much on what the original structure was like (ie massive workboat construction or slender scantling yacht type); and what stress it's put under. This is exactly what I said... it depends on the task. For the statement "Unless the part is reinforced with carefully aligned glass fiber it will not be up to the task." to be made, it assumes that either it is unsuitable for ANY task, or that ALL tasks are the same. Neither of these assumptions are correct. I'll stand by what I said... it is a rediculous assertion. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:GGB2f.306$Kp4.137@lakeread08... . We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros End rant: With pointless little self serving rants I assume. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
What Glenn said.
There are good ways to do a repair and there are half-assed ways. For structural repairs to boats where people will be in water too deep to walk home when it sinks, methods like infusion with solvented epoxy are irresponsible. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
BS
-- When replying via email, replace spam with speak in the address. "Jim Conlin" wrote in message ... What Glenn said. There are good ways to do a repair and there are half-assed ways. For structural repairs to boats where people will be in water too deep to walk home when it sinks, methods like infusion with solvented epoxy are irresponsible. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:53:58 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote: BS Pretty much looks like you are a minority of one 'round here, my friend. Why don't you try an experiment on rotten wood and restore it to its original strength.....or any sigificant strength.That'll be a stronger argument than name calling. After that you could raise a few of my dead relatives. I've got some old scores to settle. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"P.C. Ford" wrote in message
... On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:53:58 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: BS Pretty much looks like you are a minority of one 'round here, my friend. Why don't you try an experiment on rotten wood and restore it to its original strength.....or any sigificant strength.That'll be a stronger argument than name calling. Being in the minority doesn't make one wong. Especially with the statistically small sampling of boat repairers here. Get out in the real world, friend. There is life beyond the computer screen. And, I have yet to call anyone a name brother. After that you could raise a few of my dead relatives. I've got some old scores to settle. I guess next you'll tell me they all died on boats repaired with epoxy saturated wood. Ed |
Resin Injection into soft wood
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 06:45:30 -0400, "Ed Edelenbos"
wrote: Why don't you try an experiment on rotten wood and restore it to its original strength.....or any sigificant strength. Being in the minority doesn't make one wong. Especially with the statistically small sampling of boat repairers here. Ed Repeating your position does not make you right. Without much of a stake in the debate either way, I am most swayed when I read that epoxy has 1/3 the tensile strength of wood. I remember that 1 in 12 splices are specified when epoxy glueing laths - and that is evidently to increase the glue surface area - to push up that tensile strength value. Brian Whatcott |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes: Please pardon a short rant: I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job. Could you please elaborate on the use of asprin for boat repair, assuming it is being applied to the boat and not the boatbuilder? That's a new one on me. By curtain liner do you mean the polyester fabric? I've tried the ployester drapery moulding, the stuff they use to stiffen the top where they put in the hooks. It's okay for some places but not as flexible to apply as fibreglass tape. There is a mix of the drapery tape and fibreglass cloth imbedded in the polyester resin on my 12 foot, 25 pound plywood Delta boat. Neither fibre has given any trouble so far. I've never actually built a carboard boat but if you could somehow get hold of waterproof cardboard I bet it would make a great boatbuilding material for lightweight canoes and kayaks. By way of a reminder, we are not all building 50 foot offshore cruisers costing more than the average family residence to pass on to our granchildren as artifacts of consicuous consumption. Or making our living off people who do. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Ed Edelenbos" ) writes: "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:GGB2f.306$Kp4.137@lakeread08... . We have succeeded in chasing off all the pros End rant: With pointless little self serving rants I assume. Moulded fibreglass has made of boatbuilding a very competiive low-margin business. Boatyards are not even located on high priced waterfront property anymore, but in municipal industrial parks. The pros who posted here may very well have gone out of business or got tired of people questioning the obvious self-interest of some in posting here. Others have their own websites with forums where they control the content. Contrary to GA's rant not all of the people who make a living off boatbuilding have desterted the newsgroup. There is not the voume of mass produced wooden boats to support a whole wooden boatbuilding industry any more. It's very low volume. The economics of moulded boats supports mass production, not custom work. In fact the economics of mass production has also eliminated a lot of custom building in such areas as automobiles and houses. You can still save money building your own house or boat, or spend a lot of money on having one custom built if you can afford it. But it's not like it used to be or like nostalgic sentimentalists like to believe it still is. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" writes:
Please pardon a short rant: I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job. Well, not every boat has to be built better than a Swan or Hinckley, but in general I agree. In a discussion with a local hobby boatbuilder recently, I suggested using foam core instead of plywood w/ fiberglass skins, since it would be much much lighter and not prone to rot; and only slightly more expensive. I think the "slightly more expensive" is in the eye of the beholder, but he acted as though my suggestion were both a personal insult and a blasphemy against his religion. The trick is to show that while aspirin/wheat flour/shower curtain boats can float, and be fun, they're not really strong enough for many applications; and let people make their own decisions. William R. Watt wrote: Could you please elaborate on the use of asprin for boat repair, assuming it is being applied to the boat and not the boatbuilder? That's a new one on me. By curtain liner do you mean the polyester fabric? I've tried the ployester drapery moulding, the stuff they use to stiffen the top where they put in the hooks. For what, peel ply? ... It's okay for some places but not as flexible to apply as fibreglass tape. There is a mix of the drapery tape and fibreglass cloth imbedded in the polyester resin on my 12 foot, 25 pound plywood Delta boat. Neither fibre has given any trouble so far. What about just using Wal-Mart bed sheets for laminating? I've never actually built a carboard boat but if you could somehow get hold of waterproof cardboard I bet it would make a great boatbuilding material for lightweight canoes and kayaks. Where ya been? There was a thread on a cardboard boat building contest here just a little while ago. Pictures, too. By way of a reminder, we are not all building 50 foot offshore cruisers costing more than the average family residence to pass on to our granchildren as artifacts of consicuous consumption. Or making our living off people who do. :) Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy, undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people around here. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy, undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people around here. Even nice guys can have expensive tastes. If GA were a cash-strapped fisherman, recreational or commercial, he would sing a different tune. It's not rec.boats.building.luxury -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Besides, he can always radio the Coast Guard to come bail him out on our
nickel. Does England still have the scheme where their "coasties" are by subscription only? Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy, undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people around here. Even nice guys can have expensive tastes. If GA were a cash-strapped fisherman, recreational or commercial, he would sing a different tune. It's not rec.boats.building.luxury |
Resin Injection into soft wood
William R. Watt wrote:
It's not rec.boats.building.luxury It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint Part of expertise in any field is knowing where costs can be cut and still result in a useful product, knowing which shortcuts result in a sverely compromised final result, and knowing the operational limitations such work has... for an example of this, would you advocate that luan underlayment produces as strong & seaworthy a boat as Bruynzeel ply... and then expertise also consists of knowing what is truly the best way. Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ... and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original). Would that ease your socio-economic pain? DSK |
Resin Injection into soft wood
DSK ) writes: It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding materials. I chose not to. There are savers and there are consumers, and on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner. :) Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ... and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original). Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in others it isn't. Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Thanks for the many posts and discussion about this topic. As a result we
have chosen to remove and replace with new wood glued and screwed in place. We will save the wood restoration idea for planks and very small non stressful areas. Again....thanks for the many great ideas, Marshall "ahoy" wrote in message ... So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and please keep up the petty bickering,.. On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote: Hi It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Flour doesn't help much, but long fibers do. If you want increased tensile strength, then use glass fiber ...but keep in mind that it has to be oriented fiber, oriented in the direction of the load. In other words, pick the right cloth. Once you've got the right cloth, then the epoxy's sheer strength will be the primary limiting factor. PC Ford is always cranky, but he's right a lot more often than he's wrong. Hmmm... trying to think of a remark that he made that was wrong. Can't think of any. Don't let the grumpy ol' man treatment get to you. But as he stated, epoxy is not a good wood replacement if tensile strength is what you are after. Epoxy is far superior however, if what you are looking for is compressive strength ...if comparing to wood's compression strength sideways to the grain. Not sure how they compare if comparing wood's compressive strength when compressed endways. Wood might be better. Certainly it'll be more forgiving if any deflection occurs. Brian D "ahoy" wrote in message ... So does adding wood flour or sawdust as a thickener improve the bending strength for something like this? I've been wetting some hatch sliders out for saturation and then building up the gone places with flour/epoxy. It also seems to blend in better cosmetically. The splash boards look like too complicated a carpentry job for me. Oh, and please keep up the petty bickering,.. On 10 Oct 2005 09:01:04 -0700, wrote: Hi It is better to cut away more than just the rotten wood, so a new piece glued with Epoxy will carry the loads ------- even with a bad fit it is better to replace the bad wood with new and _then use the Epoxy to what it is perfect for, as glue. What's so good about Epoxy is just that even a bad fit don't matter that much as with other glues ,in fact I think, it is often better to replace the rotten wood with Epoxy rather than even thinking about using it as reinforcement for epoxy. With spot repairs it is also better to have a hand router with a copy ring and a few standard patches that fit with the router template. Use Epoxy like that and the repairs will last longer than the boat. |
Resin Injection into soft wood
William R. Watt wrote:
Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding materials. I chose not to. And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"? The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are. It may be that Glenn's expenditure on his boat represents a similar... or smaller... portion of his wealth than your boatbuilding with cheapo chain-store stuff represents of your overall wealth; if so this would make him less profligate with his money than you are. So why don't you chose the wiser course of not insulting others for their choices? ... There are savers and there are consumers, and on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner. :) I see, we've switched from rec.boats.profligate-spender to rec.boats.divine-retribution and if you're going to burn a few witches, why not wait until winter time when we need the heat anyway? Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. So there you go... you're just as wasteful & frivolous as Glenn... better keep your head down, you may get struck by lightning any second now... DSK |
Resin Injection into soft wood
When you are taking on a long term large project you have to understand the
costs involved and set your priorities accordingly. If anyone is interested, with the purchase of the engine I just passed the $70K level. Of that the hull and deck represent about 18% and the epoxy about 1/3 of that. What remains is about $30K in spars, rigging, winches and sails. That will bring the cost of the epoxy down to about 4% of the total cost of the boat. When you are deciding on such a critical component as the resin that holds the whole thing together and is such a minor component of the total cost it really does not make much sense to go cheap. BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Resin Injection into soft wood
The trade-off between cost and longevity is a perfectly reasonable one to
consider. My issue is with the safety of materials and methods which have not been tested and characterized. If there isn't either long experience or good engineering testing of a particular material, I won't use it where its failure would endanger the innocent occupants of the boat. Putting other souls in a situation where their safety depends on iffy materials, design or workmanship is irresponsible. Perhaps a Swiss bank account would be a good idea. "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... SNIP Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in others it isn't. Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious extravegance. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
DSK ) writes: And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"? The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are. I'm not bragging, I'm complaining. If you have $1 of net worth you are richer than almost half of the residents of the USA who are in debt for consumer purchases. All it requires to have savings at my somewhat advanced age is a bit of discipline. Stay in school, get a steady job, live withing your means, don't borrow. And build really cheap boats. A not-very-bright thing that is often seen on the Internet is making imaginary assumptions about anyone you don't know. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes: BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more, discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's a business opportunity. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
Resin Injection into soft wood
Bah! Amateur built boats are just like amateur built aircraft. They are
NOT the most economical way to go sailing (flying). They are built because we enjoy the building process and want to do it our way. Roger http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... "Glenn Ashmore" ) writes: BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy. I'm going to have to add to my savings to keep up with that. In addition to the $70k cost of materials there has been some labour put into the project, say 1000 hours @ $25/hr? Add in electicity usage for a bit more, discounted over the time under construction, and the project would still be producing an enviable return. Now, if a person could find a customer willing to wait several years for a custom built cruiser as GA is, there's a business opportunity. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
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