"Glenn Ashmore" ) writes:

Please pardon a short rant:
I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time
have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot
and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It
irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall
ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job.

Could you please elaborate on the use of asprin for boat repair, assuming
it is being applied to the boat and not the boatbuilder? That's a new one
on me.

By curtain liner do you mean the polyester fabric? I've tried the
ployester drapery moulding, the stuff they use to stiffen the top where
they put in the hooks. It's okay for some places but not as flexible to
apply as fibreglass tape. There is a mix of the drapery tape and
fibreglass cloth imbedded in the polyester resin on my 12 foot, 25 pound
plywood Delta boat. Neither fibre has given any trouble so far.

I've never actually built a carboard boat but if you could somehow get
hold of waterproof cardboard I bet it would make a great boatbuilding
material for lightweight canoes and kayaks.

By way of a reminder, we are not all building 50 foot offshore cruisers
costing more than the average family residence to pass on to our
granchildren as artifacts of consicuous consumption. Or making our living
off people who do.


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"Glenn Ashmore" writes:
Please pardon a short rant:
I have been participating in this news group for 7 years and in that time
have seen people espousing everything from antifreeze to aspirin to cure rot
and curtain liner to wheat flour to save a few pennies on GRP lay-ups. It
irritates me no end to hear people insisting on short cuts and off the wall
ways to save a few bucks and screw up a job.


Well, not every boat has to be built better than a Swan or Hinckley, but
in general I agree.

In a discussion with a local hobby boatbuilder recently, I suggested
using foam core instead of plywood w/ fiberglass skins, since it would
be much much lighter and not prone to rot; and only slightly more
expensive. I think the "slightly more expensive" is in the eye of the
beholder, but he acted as though my suggestion were both a personal
insult and a blasphemy against his religion.

The trick is to show that while aspirin/wheat flour/shower curtain boats
can float, and be fun, they're not really strong enough for many
applications; and let people make their own decisions.




William R. Watt wrote:
Could you please elaborate on the use of asprin for boat repair, assuming
it is being applied to the boat and not the boatbuilder? That's a new one
on me.

By curtain liner do you mean the polyester fabric? I've tried the
ployester drapery moulding, the stuff they use to stiffen the top where
they put in the hooks.

For what, peel ply?

... It's okay for some places but not as flexible to
apply as fibreglass tape. There is a mix of the drapery tape and
fibreglass cloth imbedded in the polyester resin on my 12 foot, 25 pound
plywood Delta boat. Neither fibre has given any trouble so far.


What about just using Wal-Mart bed sheets for laminating?

I've never actually built a carboard boat but if you could somehow get
hold of waterproof cardboard I bet it would make a great boatbuilding
material for lightweight canoes and kayaks.


Where ya been? There was a thread on a cardboard boat building contest
here just a little while ago. Pictures, too.

By way of a reminder, we are not all building 50 foot offshore cruisers
costing more than the average family residence to pass on to our
granchildren as artifacts of consicuous consumption. Or making our living
off people who do.


Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy,
undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people
around here.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy,
undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people
around here.

Even nice guys can have expensive tastes.

If GA were a cash-strapped fisherman, recreational or commercial, he would
sing a different tune.

It's not rec.boats.building.luxury
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Besides, he can always radio the Coast Guard to come bail him out on our
nickel. Does England still have the scheme where their "coasties" are by
subscription only?

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
Even with a smiley, that's a little over the top. Glenn is a nice guy,
undeniably a top craftsman, and he's gone out of his way to help people
around here.

Even nice guys can have expensive tastes.

If GA were a cash-strapped fisherman, recreational or commercial, he would
sing a different tune.

It's not rec.boats.building.luxury

William R. Watt wrote:
It's not rec.boats.building.luxury

It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this
newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint

Part of expertise in any field is knowing where costs can be cut and
still result in a useful product, knowing which shortcuts result in a
sverely compromised final result, and knowing the operational
limitations such work has... for an example of this, would you advocate
that luan underlayment produces as strong & seaworthy a boat as
Bruynzeel ply... and then expertise also consists of knowing what is
truly the best way.

Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin
with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly
better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ...
and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by
cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and
adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic
blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only
a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original).

Would that ease your socio-economic pain?

DSK

DSK ) writes:

It's also not rec.boats.building.envious-bloviator; neither is this
newsgroup named rec.boats.pore-mouth-skinflint

Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market
funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent
so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and
interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding
materials. I chose not to. There are savers and there are consumers, and
on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers
will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner.

Perhaps a way to approach the subject of rot-doctoring, we should begin
with "using thinned epoxy to saturate the wood is perhaps slightly
better than just sailing it anyway, letting it rot until it sinks" ...
and then going on to establish a range of possible actions, ranked by
cost effectiveness & final strength & longevity; from using epoxy and
adding some glass, on up thru a complete maestro rebuild with angelic
blessings bestowed by the spirit of Herreshoff with commentary that only
a true robber baron can afford such a thing (just like the original).

Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is
one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a
requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and
maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low
maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in
others it isn't.

Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


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William R. Watt wrote:
Now, now, I just happen to have enough free cash sitting in money market
funds to go out tomorrow and buy two boats the like of which GA has spent
so much of his life enjoyably bulding, not to mention his useful and
interesting experiments on the strength and durability of boatbuilding
materials. I chose not to.

And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"?
The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the
internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are.

It may be that Glenn's expenditure on his boat represents a similar...
or smaller... portion of his wealth than your boatbuilding with cheapo
chain-store stuff represents of your overall wealth; if so this would
make him less profligate with his money than you are.

So why don't you chose the wiser course of not insulting others for
their choices?



... There are savers and there are consumers, and
on the Last Day of Judgement the savers will be Saved and the consumers
will be Comsumed in a rather nasty and unpleasant manner.


I see, we've switched from rec.boats.profligate-spender to
rec.boats.divine-retribution and if you're going to burn a few witches,
why not wait until winter time when we need the heat anyway?




Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


So there you go... you're just as wasteful & frivolous as Glenn...
better keep your head down, you may get struck by lightning any second
now...

DSK

When you are taking on a long term large project you have to understand the
costs involved and set your priorities accordingly. If anyone is
interested, with the purchase of the engine I just passed the $70K level. Of
that the hull and deck represent about 18% and the epoxy about 1/3 of that.
What remains is about $30K in spars, rigging, winches and sails. That will
bring the cost of the epoxy down to about 4% of the total cost of the boat.
When you are deciding on such a critical component as the resin that holds
the whole thing together and is such a minor component of the total cost it
really does not make much sense to go cheap.

BTW, just got the results of the latest insurance survey. Estimated
completed value is $245K and they think I am 85% complete. By the time I
launch the insurance premium will be almost twice as much as the epoxy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

DSK ) writes:

And what's the difference between "can't afford it" and "chose not to"?
The stupidest thing on earth is to threaten to beat somebody up over the
internet. The 2nd stupidest thing is bragging about how rich you are.

I'm not bragging, I'm complaining. If you have $1 of net worth you are
richer than almost half of the residents of the USA who are in debt for
consumer purchases. All it requires to have savings at my somewhat
advanced age is a bit of discipline. Stay in school, get a steady job,
live withing your means, don't borrow. And build really cheap boats.

A not-very-bright thing that is often seen on the Internet is making
imaginary assumptions about anyone you don't know.
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The trade-off between cost and longevity is a perfectly reasonable one to
consider.
My issue is with the safety of materials and methods which have not been
tested and characterized. If there isn't either long experience or good
engineering testing of a particular material, I won't use it where its
failure would endanger the innocent occupants of the boat. Putting other
souls in a situation where their safety depends on iffy materials, design or
workmanship is irresponsible.
Perhaps a Swiss bank account would be a good idea.

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Just so, except that I'll repeat what I've posted here before and that is
one should always chose the least cost solution which satisfies a
requirement. And that there is a tradeoff between construction cost and
maintence which depends on time and labour costs. In some cases low
maintnence is a requirment which justifies high contruction cost, in
others it isn't.

Unfortunately much of non-commercial boatbuilding is purely ostentatious
extravegance.


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