"Christopher K. Egan" wrote
You have proposed
dramatic new forms.... but you have not told us what they are or how
they are made....

Can this not be said of any advancements in the past?
Thomas Edison *conceived* the idea of the lightbulb with no knowledge of
what the key element shall be, the filament. He tried well over 1000
materials before he found that bamboo worked excellently. (in fact here at
the Fort Myers Edison Museum they have original bamboo filament light bulbs
that have been lit continuously since Edison was alive.)

A problem is identified and then a solution is discovered.
This is what Per is professing.
The limitations (problem) with *Lego* style construction, and a solution,
3DH.
Though he has not identified the steps taken to get from Lego to 3DH his
vision is totally possible in the future.
Now, having said that, I am not married to Pers concept as it is largely
speculation at this point and I am a naturally skeptical person.
I do believe however that the way we now do construction will continue to
advance, to become more streamlined and less complicated, less costly, in
the future. Who knows, maybe our grandkids will live in self sufficient
extruded 50' diameter x 200' long gravity tubes hovering 500' in the air in
the late 21st century as all the land will be used up, the resources and
animals gone and geopolitical turmoil will rule the earth.

and this makes them either meaningless or ....at
best.... undeveloped as architectural proposals.

Pers ideas are not meaningless except to those that lack vision and
imagination, and I am not sure his ideas can be limited to the
*architectural* field.

GS/Don quote: "Edison tried over 1000 materials...." How many has Per
tried? Even at and economical scale?
I believe Thomas Edison spent most of his time in the lab, creating and
testing. He did not merely suggest the potential
for the lightbulb and expect every to buy into it. I suppose anyone willing
take a guess at what 'might be' in the future
is a "visionary". So Don, I guess you are right. Enjoy basking in the
bliss.

Syd














"Don" one-if-by-land.concord.com wrote in message
...

Can this not be said of any advancements in the past?
Thomas Edison *conceived* the idea of the lightbulb with no knowledge of
what the key element shall be, the filament. He tried well over 1000
materials before he found that bamboo worked excellently. (in fact here at
the Fort Myers Edison Museum they have original bamboo filament light
bulbs
that have been lit continuously since Edison was alive.)

This is not an esoteric concept. The various building materials that
could be used are obvious to me, they are just not tested yet. Per has
many times talked of various materials. As to boat building, we have
discussed plywood, sheet metal composite panels and if I understand him
correctly, even some type of particle board when it becomes advanced
enough to us in marine applications, because (good and maybe all)
plywood might be on its way out. I'm sure the guy who originally
invented the wall did not think of dry wall as a material. Materials
evolve in a construction method as it is developed for various
applications.

I can see a lot of ways to use this method. I would love to try it on a
radio controlled airplane or boat. But I am not going to invest in the
software and hardware necessary to do it without seeing it done by
someone else first. As Tom Edison bore the responsibility and reaped
the rewards of developing his design, Per has the same responsibility.
Again, I say to Per with all sincerity, BUILD SOMETHING.

Ron

I new Tom Edison. Tom Edison was a friend of mine. There are no Tom
Edison's here.

Hi

"Ron Thornton" skrev i en meddelelse
...
This is not an esoteric concept. The various building materials that
could be used are obvious to me, they are just not tested yet. Per has
many times talked of various materials. As to boat building, we have
discussed plywood, sheet metal composite panels and if I understand him
correctly, even some type of particle board when it becomes advanced
enough to us in marine applications, because (good and maybe all)
plywood might be on its way out. I'm sure the guy who originally
invented the wall did not think of dry wall as a material. Materials
evolve in a construction method as it is developed for various
applications.

I can see a lot of ways to use this method. I would love to try it on a
radio controlled airplane or boat. But I am not going to invest in the
software and hardware necessary to do it without seeing it done by
someone else first. As Tom Edison bore the responsibility and reaped
the rewards of developing his design, Per has the same responsibility.
Again, I say to Per with all sincerity, BUILD SOMETHING.

Ron

I new Tom Edison. Tom Edison was a friend of mine. There are no Tom
Edison's here.


I was just about to write the group, and kind of exchouse, that a train station,
I shuld never have commented with my own suggestion, I never would anyway have
the chance to suggest, discussion in another group, couls post highrise waves by
cross post, by the reactions only.
This web thing realy became alive as my mailbox recive atleast 5000 posts a day
now.
3D-H somtimes can get out of hand , esp. when what you fancy is both good
quality and nice design, but 3D-H is ment as a new strong option, if you want a
cotteage or a sailboat, ----------- bad luck the guy who invented it, can't both
project a shuttle ,at the same time as making the subways easyer to build, so I
guess this is as far you can go, at some point you refined your goals and means
and still you havn't tied the last strains.
True ------ even this is off-topic, I think I must join with the sheet material
issue ; if you knew how cheap you can produce a boat in chipwood, and how well
performing one in even pressed heystraw sheet will perform , you realise the
fact, that some woods, is "better " than steel . Sheet material can be cut with
a jigsaw, and when you can replace trusses and hangers in a steel structure, by
one in 3D-H , the main issue will be the material charecter and ease, what's
easier than 8 bit and sheet material )
Any new alway's been an option, but when it cost one $ per cut meter , when the
method is there everywhere or just where somone rather cut with water, than
sharpening drills.
The discussion in the architect group often get out of hand , from my
posision ------- with architecture you must have the ansver already with boats
building the ansver is already there , a nice boat .
Please check a very strong and proberly not so expensive framework, for a
building that must be covered with sheet material, it's projected in 8 mm steel
sheet assembly and can easily be made hold fire proving and or heating chanels ;
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2573.html

P.C.

"Syd Mead" wrote in message
news:QbAeb.9058$Rd4.3063@fed1read07...
GS/Don quote: "Edison tried over 1000 materials...." How many has Per
tried? Even at and economical scale?

You're talking apples and oranges.
Per is suggesting a *method*, not a material.

You're talking apples and oranges.
Per is suggesting a *method*, not a material.

Apples and apples. Edison had an idea and tried to implement it. Per found
the "boolean" button in his 3d program, threw some inaccurate adjectives at
it and talks it up like it's cross sliced bread.

"gruhn" wrote in message
...
You're talking apples and oranges.
Per is suggesting a *method*, not a material.

Apples and apples. Edison had an idea and tried to implement it. Per found
the "boolean" button in his 3d program, threw some inaccurate adjectives
at
it and talks it up like it's cross sliced bread.

Not at all.
Per has suggested sheet steel and plywood.
Many other materials can be implied including composites.
For what its worth, I saw a *new* material recently, 2 sheets that when the
sheets are pulled away from each other it automatically creates *webs*
(structural) in between the sheets (sort of like corrugated cardboard or
luan doors).
As I've said all along Per has simply suggested a *way* to do things, and
has implied the materials.
I'm suggesting that the method AND the materials are yet unknown.
Face it, to chastize Per is to spit in ones own face as he is speaking of
the future and none of know what that holds.
As for me I will continue to observe and be skepticle of all things, and I
will try to hold my tongue regarding things I am not an expert on.

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:24:44 -0400, "Don" one-if-by-land.concord.com
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:


"gruhn" wrote in message
...
You're talking apples and oranges.
Per is suggesting a *method*, not a material.

Apples and apples. Edison had an idea and tried to implement it. Per found
the "boolean" button in his 3d program, threw some inaccurate adjectives
at
it and talks it up like it's cross sliced bread.

Not at all.
Per has suggested sheet steel and plywood.
Many other materials can be implied including composites.

So let Per even demo a _model_. Edison did.

If somebody did take Per's idea, and made it work, then marketed it or
in some way profited from it, Per may well join that long list of
"visionaries" who go down in history as the "real", "hard done by"
inventor. If Per wants somebody to back him, and share the profits (I
hope) the Per needs to show that there is some _practical_ use to
this. It would cost far less than the computer and Net connection for
a year to get a model going. If Per is physically incapable of this,
which is a possibility that needs considering, then surely he can
arrange somebody to give a small madeol a go, to generate real
interest.

Don. Why don't _you_ give it a go?
************************************************** ****************************************
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:24:44 -0400, "Don" one-if-by-land.concord.com
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:


"gruhn" wrote in message
...
You're talking apples and oranges.
Per is suggesting a *method*, not a material.

Apples and apples. Edison had an idea and tried to implement it. Per
found
the "boolean" button in his 3d program, threw some inaccurate
adjectives
at
it and talks it up like it's cross sliced bread.

Not at all.
Per has suggested sheet steel and plywood.
Many other materials can be implied including composites.

So let Per even demo a _model_. Edison did.

If somebody did take Per's idea, and made it work, then marketed it or
in some way profited from it, Per may well join that long list of
"visionaries" who go down in history as the "real", "hard done by"
inventor. If Per wants somebody to back him, and share the profits (I
hope) the Per needs to show that there is some _practical_ use to
this. It would cost far less than the computer and Net connection for
a year to get a model going. If Per is physically incapable of this,
which is a possibility that needs considering, then surely he can
arrange somebody to give a small madeol a go, to generate real
interest.

Don. Why don't _you_ give it a go?

As Per would say, "I have my own pony to ride". ;-)

Hey Nick, have I seen your sig over in misc.survivalism?
I haven't been there in awhile.


************************************************** **************************
**************
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Hi

"Don" one-if-by-land.concord.com skrev i en meddelelse
...

Not at all.
Per has suggested sheet steel and plywood.
Many other materials can be implied including composites.
For what its worth, I saw a *new* material recently, 2 sheets that when the
sheets are pulled away from each other it automatically creates *webs*
(structural) in between the sheets (sort of like corrugated cardboard or
luan doors).
As I've said all along Per has simply suggested a *way* to do things, and
has implied the materials.
I'm suggesting that the method AND the materials are yet unknown.
Face it, to chastize Per is to spit in ones own face as he is speaking of
the future and none of know what that holds.
As for me I will continue to observe and be skepticle of all things, and I
will try to hold my tongue regarding things I am not an expert on.


Today when somone want to drill thru 3 inch steel , you rather send the piece to
a shop where a water or laser cutter do the job, ----- if holes is what you ask
then 500 holes is no problem , if square holes no problem . the water jet or
laser don't requier as expensive drills and work much more smooth , acturly this
is how most water cutters is used ; for "dumb" work where you need 3000 squart
washers , the same water jet that can drill your holes, do the washers, or
whatever you can make the jet follow.
This is where building elements can be made cheaper, as there are a cost pr.cut.
feet and realy that cost is quite low. -------- now any sense mashin shop will
ofcaurse resell the steel you need and make that profit ontop, but I heard about
several steel mills that to provide the extra service, sell rough quantities
ready rough cut , this is only a question of time.
Anyway try check this small movie where you se a laser cutter working , cutting
down to 1/10 millimeter accurancy ;
http://www.abj.dk/ab/laser.rm
Now what you se here is a relative small cutter, but for a decade shipyards been
cutting steel sheets by drawing a chalk line that two photo-electric sensors
made the flame cutter follow , --- guess for some 50 years . And it is these
huge benches that is now replaced with CAD driven water cutters, that will
produce any assembly in sheet steel.
But this is just one out of many applications, where a computer drawing directly
show the cutter how to cut the pieces ------- the only new thing is now a methos
that ensure a simple 3D puzzle from the pieces cut.
Now this can be a way for big buisness to sell steel , as if you are building a
steel structure, you don't need to emty the shelfes or store on shelfes , the
special fittings you will need ; you need a special fitting the cutter produce
it when and where you need it numbered .
About 3D-H I think there are just a few facts that shuld tell why, --------
first fact is that if you can put Solids together on a computer screen, you can
press a button , and the program will generate the full assembly, but realy you
do not need a "program" to do this. Acturly most of the structures I showed, is
done "by hand" , section by section and realy , it wasn't that big or difficult
a task. But what the method call on, is another way to project that is realy
easier than how it's done today. Problem thoug is, that you can emagine micro
structures that made right could make the space shuttles a cooling element
,making a space jurney as safe as a trip in a row boat, but in the other end of
the possible structures to make self carrying , you must emagine huge steel
structures , where just the different distribuation of connecting fittings, will
make any structure that much stronger ; --------- I use to point to the fact,
that when the Towers fell due to a construction fact , the trusses and knee's
that eventualy failed, ---- then 3D-H will build a Tower without just these
trusses and knees, sot a 3D-H structure Tower would not lose the floors as the
old ones did.
Beside while I am here, 3D-H will perform a fireprove idear, that is to
difficult in a tradisional building structure, but with 3D-H these issues get
helped by the fact structure , and the way things is put together.
But please don't restrict your emagination to thin robbons and already weak
structures,
3D-H or somthing develobed from that idear, can build from "sheet material" with
a simple one function robot , -------- what you shuld know about 3D-H is also
that both strength structure aswell as the paneling, are made from same
material.You don't need 20 different types of ribs, sheets or whatever, but one
thing is very typical for this method ; you do not bend one single piece. Now
maby yoy think "then what", but this mean no fiddeling. Flat pieces will form
the ribs for a round building without any piece bend.
P.C.