Dear Group,
Has anyone in the group used vinylester resin to do any boat
building? Some manufacturers are claiming very close performance to
epoxy because of epoxy resins being added to the vinylester. Are these
claims true? Thanks for any help.


M Russon

No, the claims are not true in so far as the epoxy being *in* the
vinylester resin. What may have some validity is the claim that
vinylester resins are "very close" to epoxy when the end product is an
all fiberglass boat hull.

The chemical makeup of polyester resins (of which vinylester is a
family member) are a concoction of anhydrides, polybasic acids, glycols
and styrene, plus an 'accelarator' of cobalt napthanate. Once a small
percentage (1 - 2 % by weight) of Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide is added
(called the "catalyst"), a chemical reaction occurs as the result of
rapid oxidation.

Epoxy resins are quite different chemically, baed largely on Bisphenol
products and Ethyl Hexyl Glycidyl Ether. Once mixed with a "hardner"
(in a ratio of anywhere between 25 to 100 % by weight) a chemical
reaction occurs due to molucular bonding.

It's ludicrous to supose that these two vastly different chemical
'systems' could be made to work together in one product. If you can
find a manufacturer who claims to have both systems in one product, I'd
love to hear about it!

However... Vinylester resins exhibit many of the properties that are
associated with Epoxies when describing qualities that comprise a sound
fiberglass hull, namely: High chemical and corosion resistance, high
elongation flexibility, and reduced water permiation. Vinylesters are
the 'best' of the polyester resin family, and are (of course) priced
accordingly (albeit considerably less than Epoxy).

Remeber that all polyester resins are *not* very good adhesives, which
is primarily why early attempts to sheath wooden hulls with fiberglass
failed; ultimately the bond between the wood and the resin let loose,
water got to the wood and...

So: If you'll be laying-up a fiberglass hull and can stand the styrene
smell, Vinylester resin would be a sound choice, especially for
traditional e-glass materials.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

On 7 Sep 2005 22:04:46 -0700, wrote:


Remeber that all polyester resins are *not* very good adhesives, which
is primarily why early attempts to sheath wooden hulls with fiberglass
failed; ultimately the bond between the wood and the resin let loose,
water got to the wood and...

So: If you'll be laying-up a fiberglass hull and can stand the styrene
smell, Vinylester resin would be a sound choice, especially for
traditional e-glass materials.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles


Mike,
Thanks a ton for your clarification. I was under the impression that
some claims were a bit far fetched. I will be glassing a wood hull in
this boat so it appears that epoxy will be the one to use. I will do
some price hunting and see what i can get. Thanks again for your
information.

M Russon

Hetron is a tank liner coating not a laminating resin. It is used to coat
the inside of caustic chemical and petroleum tanks. Closer to vinyl ester
floor paint than real epoxy. Somewhat flexible and cures with MEKP. Some
Bromated Epoxy vinyl esters are used with reinforcing to build tanks and
high end bathroom fixtures but generally to low a modulus for boat building.
It is very resistant to permeation though.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"MRusson" wrote in message
...
On 7 Sep 2005 22:04:46 -0700, wrote:


It's ludicrous to supose that these two vastly different chemical
'systems' could be made to work together in one product. If you can
find a manufacturer who claims to have both systems in one product, I'd
love to hear about it!

Mike,
This is the stuff i was mentioning in an earlier post. Is this an
epoxy-vinyl ester blend?

http://www.ashchem.com/ascc/compoly/HighPerfEpoxy.asp

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

I gladly and humbly defer to Glenn on this one. I'm not a chemical
engineer, nor do I play one on TV, but I thought I had a pretty good
grasp on the basic chemical differences between the polyester family of
resins and the epoxies. It appears that the Hetron contains some
quantity of Bisphenol A, a major component of most laminating epoxies.
I could not locate the MSDS on the Ashland site - this would have been
instructive in deducing what perecentage of BPA is in the brew.

(For reference, West Systems all-purpose "105" epoxy resin is 50% BPA)

What puzzles me is the ability of MEKP to 'harden' the BPA, especially
if the BPA comprises more than a percent or two of the Hetron product.
My understanding is (was?) that a member of the Amine family is
required for the cross-linking (harding) of true 'epoxy' resins.

At any rate - as Glenn suggests - Hetron may not be a suitable resin
product for boatbuilding.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

Soooo ...what about hardness as compared to epoxy, and what about vinylester
as a gap-filling glue? If the hardness is similar or higher than epoxy but
the elongation and shear strength is not lower than epoxy, then that would
be great. If the vinylester can and will bond like epoxy, that that would
be great. When I say 'bond like epoxy', that means non-shrinking
gap-filling and stronger than the wood ...the wood fails before the glue
joint fails when you perform destructive tests. If vinylester can't live up
to these standards, then I'd stick with epoxy (haha).

Brian


wrote in message
ups.com...
No, the claims are not true in so far as the epoxy being *in* the
vinylester resin. What may have some validity is the claim that
vinylester resins are "very close" to epoxy when the end product is an
all fiberglass boat hull.

The chemical makeup of polyester resins (of which vinylester is a
family member) are a concoction of anhydrides, polybasic acids, glycols
and styrene, plus an 'accelarator' of cobalt napthanate. Once a small
percentage (1 - 2 % by weight) of Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide is added
(called the "catalyst"), a chemical reaction occurs as the result of
rapid oxidation.

Epoxy resins are quite different chemically, baed largely on Bisphenol
products and Ethyl Hexyl Glycidyl Ether. Once mixed with a "hardner"
(in a ratio of anywhere between 25 to 100 % by weight) a chemical
reaction occurs due to molucular bonding.

It's ludicrous to supose that these two vastly different chemical
'systems' could be made to work together in one product. If you can
find a manufacturer who claims to have both systems in one product, I'd
love to hear about it!

However... Vinylester resins exhibit many of the properties that are
associated with Epoxies when describing qualities that comprise a sound
fiberglass hull, namely: High chemical and corosion resistance, high
elongation flexibility, and reduced water permiation. Vinylesters are
the 'best' of the polyester resin family, and are (of course) priced
accordingly (albeit considerably less than Epoxy).

Remeber that all polyester resins are *not* very good adhesives, which
is primarily why early attempts to sheath wooden hulls with fiberglass
failed; ultimately the bond between the wood and the resin let loose,
water got to the wood and...

So: If you'll be laying-up a fiberglass hull and can stand the styrene
smell, Vinylester resin would be a sound choice, especially for
traditional e-glass materials.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

Brian D wrote:
Soooo ...what about hardness as compared to epoxy, and what about vinylester
as a gap-filling glue? If the hardness is similar or higher than epoxy but
the elongation and shear strength is not lower than epoxy, then that would
be great. If the vinylester can and will bond like epoxy, that that would
be great. When I say 'bond like epoxy', that means non-shrinking
gap-filling and stronger than the wood ...the wood fails before the glue
joint fails when you perform destructive tests. If vinylester can't live up
to these standards, then I'd stick with epoxy (haha).

Vinylester and polyester are laminating resins, not adhesives. They are
not a substitute for epoxy in bonding applications.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:05:17 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote:

Soooo ...what about hardness as compared to epoxy, and what about vinylester
as a gap-filling glue? If the hardness is similar or higher than epoxy but
the elongation and shear strength is not lower than epoxy, then that would
be great. If the vinylester can and will bond like epoxy, that that would
be great. When I say 'bond like epoxy', that means non-shrinking
gap-filling and stronger than the wood ...the wood fails before the glue
joint fails when you perform destructive tests. If vinylester can't live up
to these standards, then I'd stick with epoxy (haha).

Brian


Just some info for you about Corezyn Vinyl Ester resin. The numbers
speak for themselves.
http://www.geocities.com/duke_of_ur1/Lenox/
Click the vinyl ester resin link to the left.
I have liked vinyl ester resins for years, and don't see why more
people don't use them. They have, in most cases, superior results and
the price is better. Thats my 2 cents worth. I like the Interplastics
Corezyn VE-8117. It is a great resin.


M Russon