This is my first shot at a fiberglass repair and it didn't go quite as
smoothly as it showed in the book. I'm stumped about what to do next and
hope someone on this group has either done the same thing or can tell me how
to fix this.

I had two good size holes in a 22' sailboat to patch. The holes are shaped
long and narrrow, cracks in the hull that I cut out and laid in epoxy resin
and fiberglass. I followed the instructions in the book by Don Casey on Deck
and Hull Repair. I worked from the inside, grinding a 12:1 bevel and laying
down increasingly larger patches of epoxy resin soaked fiberglass.

The part I screwed up is the plastic I had laid up against the hull for the
first coat of gelcoat was not reinforced well enough. When I was squeezing
the patches to get the air bubbles out I pushed too hard. Taking off the
backing the fiberglass has set up perfectly except I pushed it so some of
the fiberglass now bulges beyond the exterior of the hull itself. Naturally
the gelcoat I had applied before laying down the fiberglass just fell out.
By the way I talked to the technicians at West Systems who assured me that
the polyester resin would stick to the epoxy patch.

Now I'm not sure what to do. My first impulse is to sand (scuff) the
fiberglass down past the hull and lay on gelcoat, then sand the gelcoat
flush with the hull. Would this work or am I just ruining the patch job? I'd
rather not use paint so any suggestions that would allow me to use gelcoat
(I've already got it) would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for any
help!

Mike

Bonasa wrote:
This is my first shot at a fiberglass repair and it didn't go quite as
smoothly as it showed in the book. I'm stumped about what to do next and
hope someone on this group has either done the same thing or can tell me how
to fix this.

I had two good size holes in a 22' sailboat to patch. The holes are shaped
long and narrrow, cracks in the hull that I cut out and laid in epoxy resin
and fiberglass. I followed the instructions in the book by Don Casey on Deck
and Hull Repair. I worked from the inside, grinding a 12:1 bevel and laying
down increasingly larger patches of epoxy resin soaked fiberglass.

The part I screwed up is the plastic I had laid up against the hull for the
first coat of gelcoat was not reinforced well enough. When I was squeezing
the patches to get the air bubbles out I pushed too hard. Taking off the
backing the fiberglass has set up perfectly except I pushed it so some of
the fiberglass now bulges beyond the exterior of the hull itself. Naturally
the gelcoat I had applied before laying down the fiberglass just fell out.
By the way I talked to the technicians at West Systems who assured me that
the polyester resin would stick to the epoxy patch.

Now I'm not sure what to do. My first impulse is to sand (scuff) the
fiberglass down past the hull and lay on gelcoat, then sand the gelcoat
flush with the hull. Would this work or am I just ruining the patch job? I'd
rather not use paint so any suggestions that would allow me to use gelcoat
(I've already got it) would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for any
help!

If the glass and not just the resin has protruded, sanding it down will
compromize the strength of the repair, since you'll be cutting through
the glass. I hate to say it, but your best bet is probably to grind it
all out and start over. Another option would be to grind it down on the
outside and add more reinforcement on the inside. Without seeing the
sitution, it's hard to say whether that's a viable approach.

As West Systems told you, epoxy and gelcoat ARE compatible, within
certain limits. Epoxy will adhere just fine to fully cured gelcoat,
provided that the surface is clean and (preferably) sanded lightly to
give it some "tooth". Gelcoat will adhere to epoxy given the same
conditions (fully cured, clean, sanded epoxy). I've done this numerous
times on repairs that could only be accomplished from the outside.

Mike,
Brian is correct that the strength odf the repair might be compromised,
but if you scrub the inside and lay in as much glass as you had to grind
off to get to where you want the gelcoat, it should be fine.
If you are paranoid about the gelcoat/epoxy bond then go get a little
vinylester resin and do a wet coat of that on the epoxy before applying
the gelcoat. The vinylester will bond to both the epoxy and the
poylester, but polyester does like to stick ot very much.
Matt Colie

Bonasa wrote:
This is my first shot at a fiberglass repair and it didn't go quite as
smoothly as it showed in the book. I'm stumped about what to do next and
hope someone on this group has either done the same thing or can tell me how
to fix this.

I had two good size holes in a 22' sailboat to patch. The holes are shaped
long and narrrow, cracks in the hull that I cut out and laid in epoxy resin
and fiberglass. I followed the instructions in the book by Don Casey on Deck
and Hull Repair. I worked from the inside, grinding a 12:1 bevel and laying
down increasingly larger patches of epoxy resin soaked fiberglass.

The part I screwed up is the plastic I had laid up against the hull for the
first coat of gelcoat was not reinforced well enough. When I was squeezing
the patches to get the air bubbles out I pushed too hard. Taking off the
backing the fiberglass has set up perfectly except I pushed it so some of
the fiberglass now bulges beyond the exterior of the hull itself. Naturally
the gelcoat I had applied before laying down the fiberglass just fell out.
By the way I talked to the technicians at West Systems who assured me that
the polyester resin would stick to the epoxy patch.

Now I'm not sure what to do. My first impulse is to sand (scuff) the
fiberglass down past the hull and lay on gelcoat, then sand the gelcoat
flush with the hull. Would this work or am I just ruining the patch job? I'd
rather not use paint so any suggestions that would allow me to use gelcoat
(I've already got it) would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for any
help!

Mike

Bryan and Matt,

Thank you both very much for taking the time to help this newbie. I already
had to grind out and redo one of the patches cuz I wasn't happy with the
layup, I'd rather not do it again.

I've complicated things (I know, by now you're slapping your forehead, don't
blame ya) by glassing in vertical stringers across the patch so I need to
look and see if I can avoid the stringers.

I think first I'm going to try the easier way and grind down from the
outside. I only need to come down about a 1/2mm at the center of the patch,
the sides recessed. If I'm not satisfied with the integrity of the repair,
then I'll suck it up, break out the grinder, and do it again.

If anyone else has any input I'd love to hear it, I'm a student here. Well,
at least I'm learning alot...

By the way if anyone knows of a free web site I'll post pictures of the
damage and repairs, maybe it will benefit others.

Thanks again,
Mike


Now I'm not sure what to do. My first impulse is to sand (scuff) the
fiberglass down past the hull and lay on gelcoat, then sand the gelcoat
flush with the hull. Would this work or am I just ruining the patch job?
I'd rather not use paint so any suggestions that would allow me to use
gelcoat (I've already got it) would be appreciated. Thank you in advance
for any help!

Mike

Bonasa wrote:
Bryan and Matt,

Thank you both very much for taking the time to help this newbie. I already
had to grind out and redo one of the patches cuz I wasn't happy with the
layup, I'd rather not do it again.

I've complicated things (I know, by now you're slapping your forehead, don't
blame ya) by glassing in vertical stringers across the patch so I need to
look and see if I can avoid the stringers.

I think first I'm going to try the easier way and grind down from the
outside. I only need to come down about a 1/2mm at the center of the patch,
the sides recessed. If I'm not satisfied with the integrity of the repair,
then I'll suck it up, break out the grinder, and do it again.

If anyone else has any input I'd love to hear it, I'm a student here. Well,
at least I'm learning alot...

By the way if anyone knows of a free web site I'll post pictures of the
damage and repairs, maybe it will benefit others.

How thick is the patch? It's it's thick enough, .5mm won't make much of
a difference, but if the patch is only 3mm thick it's a different story.

Mike,

We all live and learn. The big trick is to survive the errors.

Half a millimeter is nothing to worry about. Unless the hull is vacuum
processed (highly unlikely unless it is a high buck or a one design), it
was sprayed into the mold with a chop gun. The hull thickness variation
is probably already three or more mm.

You never did indicate how large and area you were rebuilding. Now you
mention vertical elements. Thwartships (accross the boat) parts are
either frames or bulkheads - Stringers are fore-aft structures.

Were these frames original and you are replacing them?
Or were they your own addition to shore up the damaged area?

Either case....Sail the boat.

If they are original structure that you replaced. Then they are the
real structure of the boat and the glass that you just patched is only
there to keep the water out.

If they are something you added, then the hull is probably a whole lot
stronger than it came out of the box - even with 1/2 mm of laminate
missing locally.

In this case, I think it makes little difference, but if you said more
about the boat (manufacturer, version) and the actual area and possible
cause of damage. It might make a concise answer more possible.

You can use the gelcoat over a wet coat of vinylester resin. Polyester
doesn't actually stick to much, but the base of vinylester will do as
good a job of anything at making it work.

You can post pictures at:
http://www.web-a-photo.com/
http://community.webshots.com/
Both have free and suscription packages, look them over.

If I missed anything - try again. I'm here a lot.

Fair Wind and Smooth Sea
Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor


Bonasa wrote:
Bryan and Matt,

Thank you both very much for taking the time to help this newbie. I already
had to grind out and redo one of the patches cuz I wasn't happy with the
layup, I'd rather not do it again.

I've complicated things (I know, by now you're slapping your forehead, don't
blame ya) by glassing in vertical stringers across the patch so I need to
look and see if I can avoid the stringers.

I think first I'm going to try the easier way and grind down from the
outside. I only need to come down about a 1/2mm at the center of the patch,
the sides recessed. If I'm not satisfied with the integrity of the repair,
then I'll suck it up, break out the grinder, and do it again.

If anyone else has any input I'd love to hear it, I'm a student here. Well,
at least I'm learning alot...

By the way if anyone knows of a free web site I'll post pictures of the
damage and repairs, maybe it will benefit others.

Thanks again,
Mike



Now I'm not sure what to do. My first impulse is to sand (scuff) the
fiberglass down past the hull and lay on gelcoat, then sand the gelcoat
flush with the hull. Would this work or am I just ruining the patch job?
I'd rather not use paint so any suggestions that would allow me to use
gelcoat (I've already got it) would be appreciated. Thank you in advance
for any help!

Mike

I'd just cut out the protruding bit and repatch that.
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Thanks Matt,

Well, I ended up having to grind the patch out and start all over. The
layers weren't bonded as well as they should have and by the time I got the
patch level there were holes all over. I've got a better idea how to do this
now, so it should go a lot quicker and a lot better.

There are 2 holes I have to patch, one is about 3 feet long by 5 inches wide
at the widest part, the other one is about 2 feet long and maybe 4 inches
wide at the widest part. This is just a standard production line Ranger 22
built sometime in the 70's.

The only part I'm stuck on is working from the inside, how to I back the
hole so the first and then subsequent layers of glass lie flat and don't go
past the hull and at the same time get all the air out? Any thoughts would
be appreciated and thanks for the ideas.

I took some pictures of the inside repairs I ground out and an exterior shot
to give a better idea of where one of the holes are and put it on the web at
the link below. I'll add more photos to the album as I go along:

http://community.webshots.com/user/bonasa1026

Thank you for the assistance,

Mike

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Mike,

We all live and learn. The big trick is to survive the errors.

Half a millimeter is nothing to worry about. Unless the hull is vacuum
processed (highly unlikely unless it is a high buck or a one design), it
was sprayed into the mold with a chop gun. The hull thickness variation
is probably already three or more mm.

You never did indicate how large and area you were rebuilding. Now you
mention vertical elements. Thwartships (accross the boat) parts are
either frames or bulkheads - Stringers are fore-aft structures.

Were these frames original and you are replacing them?
Or were they your own addition to shore up the damaged area?

Either case....Sail the boat.

If they are original structure that you replaced. Then they are the real
structure of the boat and the glass that you just patched is only there to
keep the water out.

If they are something you added, then the hull is probably a whole lot
stronger than it came out of the box - even with 1/2 mm of laminate
missing locally.

In this case, I think it makes little difference, but if you said more
about the boat (manufacturer, version) and the actual area and possible
cause of damage. It might make a concise answer more possible.

You can use the gelcoat over a wet coat of vinylester resin. Polyester
doesn't actually stick to much, but the base of vinylester will do as good
a job of anything at making it work.

You can post pictures at:
http://www.web-a-photo.com/
http://community.webshots.com/
Both have free and suscription packages, look them over.

If I missed anything - try again. I'm here a lot.

Fair Wind and Smooth Sea
Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor

Bonasa wrote:
Thanks Matt,

Well, I ended up having to grind the patch out and start all over. The
layers weren't bonded as well as they should have and by the time I got the
patch level there were holes all over. I've got a better idea how to do this
now, so it should go a lot quicker and a lot better.

There are 2 holes I have to patch, one is about 3 feet long by 5 inches wide
at the widest part, the other one is about 2 feet long and maybe 4 inches
wide at the widest part. This is just a standard production line Ranger 22
built sometime in the 70's.

The only part I'm stuck on is working from the inside, how to I back the
hole so the first and then subsequent layers of glass lie flat and don't go
past the hull and at the same time get all the air out? Any thoughts would
be appreciated and thanks for the ideas.

I took some pictures of the inside repairs I ground out and an exterior shot
to give a better idea of where one of the holes are and put it on the web at
the link below. I'll add more photos to the album as I go along:

http://community.webshots.com/user/bonasa1026

Is there a specific reason that you can't work from the outside as well?
If not, grind a slight bevel there and lay a layer of glass on the
outside (you need to bevel the edges in order to blend the gelcoat,
anyway). No only will it strengthen the patch, but it will serve as a
form for the inner layers if you allow it to cure to at least the green
stage before laying them up. I wouldn't bother with the vertical
supports, as they're really not going to gain you anything. Apply finish
gelcoat to the outside after the epoxy patch has FULLY cured.

Mike,

The hole on the starboard side looks a whole lot like th boat was
dropped or set on the cradle real wrong. Is the other laminate failure
in a similar location (but below the waterline)? If things were wrong
enough, those straps could have done it.

Before you make another try, let go the tie down staps and try jacking
the after end buy the rudder. Just enough to see if the hole shape
changes any. If yes, set things so the keel line between the keel foil
and the rudder is a smooth curve.

The damage you are trying to repair is actually a good candidate for a
mold section. If any body still know where the molds are, this might be
considered. This is a process where you get the owner of the mold to
make you a piece (full thickness from the gelcoat in) that is bigger
than the hole so you can cut it and splice it in.

Back to what you are doing. None of this will be cheap or easy - sorry.

If you know the location of another Ranger 22, you could use it to
create molds for the damaged sections.
If that is not a possiblity, you need to create and external form. Cut
four or five 2*4 -edge on- to fit the hullside and span them with a
couple more of same so the set can be held to the shipside and support a
mating surface. I suggest 1/2 or 3/4 foam insulation board as it can
take on the compound curvature with out extreme load. The smaller this
piece is, the easier it will be to get it to form to the side, but it
needs to be large enough so the strongbacks can keep it from being flat
(A few drywall screws could help here, but we never had them around.)
Coat this with a release agent before clamping it to the side. The big
yellow straps will work, but not alone. You should support the form
weight first. tie it up to the winches or some such.

Now that a form is in place, Do the gelcoat and patch that you must be
familiar with. You will need to sand the gelcoat smooth when you are
done.

Good Luck

Matt Colie


Bonasa wrote:
Thanks Matt,

Well, I ended up having to grind the patch out and start all over. The
layers weren't bonded as well as they should have and by the time I got the
patch level there were holes all over. I've got a better idea how to do this
now, so it should go a lot quicker and a lot better.

There are 2 holes I have to patch, one is about 3 feet long by 5 inches wide
at the widest part, the other one is about 2 feet long and maybe 4 inches
wide at the widest part. This is just a standard production line Ranger 22
built sometime in the 70's.

The only part I'm stuck on is working from the inside, how to I back the
hole so the first and then subsequent layers of glass lie flat and don't go
past the hull and at the same time get all the air out? Any thoughts would
be appreciated and thanks for the ideas.

I took some pictures of the inside repairs I ground out and an exterior shot
to give a better idea of where one of the holes are and put it on the web at
the link below. I'll add more photos to the album as I go along:

http://community.webshots.com/user/bonasa1026

Thank you for the assistance,

Mike

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

Mike,

We all live and learn. The big trick is to survive the errors.

Half a millimeter is nothing to worry about. Unless the hull is vacuum
processed (highly unlikely unless it is a high buck or a one design), it
was sprayed into the mold with a chop gun. The hull thickness variation
is probably already three or more mm.

You never did indicate how large and area you were rebuilding. Now you
mention vertical elements. Thwartships (accross the boat) parts are
either frames or bulkheads - Stringers are fore-aft structures.

Were these frames original and you are replacing them?
Or were they your own addition to shore up the damaged area?

Either case....Sail the boat.

If they are original structure that you replaced. Then they are the real
structure of the boat and the glass that you just patched is only there to
keep the water out.

If they are something you added, then the hull is probably a whole lot
stronger than it came out of the box - even with 1/2 mm of laminate
missing locally.

In this case, I think it makes little difference, but if you said more
about the boat (manufacturer, version) and the actual area and possible
cause of damage. It might make a concise answer more possible.

You can use the gelcoat over a wet coat of vinylester resin. Polyester
doesn't actually stick to much, but the base of vinylester will do as good
a job of anything at making it work.

You can post pictures at:
http://www.web-a-photo.com/
http://community.webshots.com/
Both have free and suscription packages, look them over.

If I missed anything - try again. I'm here a lot.

Fair Wind and Smooth Sea
Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor