(Nice post snipped)

chuckleYou are very right in rather graciously implying with an
admirable level of restraint, that a lifetime of acquired prejudice in
one sector of marine life may or may not be detrimental when applied to
another.

It happens that we lucked out for the time being with this one by
acting like commerical guys, by the grace of God, though we got damned
dirty & tired doing so. ;-) Seems we're not 32 anymore.

By similar Providence the associated hoses, diverter, macerator & etc.
are in good serviceable cond. Sort of "a stopped clock is right twice
a day" evolution. ;-)

A foundational problem is this instance is that of a '70's boat never
envisioned to need MSD, backfitted with a tank that entirely fills the
only reasonably avail space without extensive mod, which is still only
1/2 the capacity of present-day practice, i.e. 45 USG/37' LOA
motorsailer. I'm sure you've seen this movie 1,000 times, perhaps
minus the same humorous cast of characters.

Off-the shelf poly options reduce this to 30 USG on a good day.

Were she mine, I'd consider a more extensive mod to fit more tankage of
less unusual dimensions.

Good news is she has a free berth alongside a commercial cargo terminal
that has great heads inside. :-)

Yes, austenitic SS has pitted in MSD use since we first though it'd
work well in '76. (You should've seen the other & bigger boo-boos we
made with early commerical MSD's.) We can get it fabbed for free,
though, & flush & repassivate it view she will only be afloat 3 mos/yr
for the next decade.

Another issue/question arose during this minor Chinese firedrill:
urethane foam. Tank had been foamed in-place for support. Naturally
this made it a b*tch to break free & remove, given nearly no working
clearance (with an unscheduled main halyard "stress test" in the
bargaing). But I am unclear as to the use of unprotected/un-enclosed
urethane foam aboard a yatch. You can't even do this ashore in a
house, though there is so much other dangerous stuff to burn in a yacht
that maybe it is moot. It there a r/b guideline or other generally
accepted practice relating to its use aboard a yatch, which you may be
aware of? BTW carpenter ants looouuuuvv urethane foam, too, as a
preferred multi-unit condo, and they will find it even if it is under
concrete on all sides or 25' off the ground inside a structure.

BstRgds,
- f.

Seems we're not 32 anymore.

I'm continually astonished to rediscover that almost daily.

A foundational problem is this instance is that of a '70's boat never
envisioned to need MSD, backfitted with a tank that entirely fills the
only reasonably avail space without extensive mod, which is still only
1/2 the capacity of present-day practice, i.e. 45 USG/37' LOA
motorsailer.

A 45 gal tank should be more than adequate for a 37' boat. In fact, it's
about 50% larger than what most OEMs are installing today on boats that
size.

People have highly unrealistic ideas when it comes to waste holding
capacity...they expect a tank to hold enough waste from a family of 4 to
be able remain continuously aboard for 2-4 weeks between
pumpouts...not realizing that the average volume including flush water
for a family of 4 is 10 gal/DAY. Even just a cruising or live-aboard
couple would need tankage big enough to turn their vessel into a
floating honey barge to stay aboard continuously more than about a week.

Yes, austenitic SS has pitted in MSD use since we first though it'd
work well in '76. (You should've seen the other & bigger boo-boos we
made with early commerical MSD's.)

I have seen them...recirculating systems is only one example.

We can get it fabbed for free,
though, & flush & repassivate it view she will only be afloat 3 mos/yr
for the next decade.

Used only 3 mos/year, or used year-round...10 years is still the average
lifespan of any metal waste tank. Flushing and repassivating doesn't
extend it much if any...metal WATER tanks rarely survive more than 20
years before springing a leak somewhere.


Good news is she has a free berth alongside a commercial cargo terminal
that has great heads inside. :-)

What is the make/model age of the heads on the boat? If still
original--or even more than a few years old--they may or may not be
worth servicing...if, in fact, any parts or service kits are still
available. How many heads?

Another issue/question arose during this minor Chinese firedrill:
urethane foam.

Don't do it...foaming in tanks is neither recommended nor necessary. For
one thing, federal law requires that there be some means of determining
when a waste tank is at least 3/4 full (this is supposed to prevent
accidental overflows out the tank vent). If the level in the tank cannot
be determined by visual inspection--which foaming it in would make
impossible, a gauge is required.

However, foamed in or not, if the location of the tank makes it so
inaccessible that visual inspection becomes so impractical as to be
impossible, you'll still have to install a gauge.

Tanks rarely bounce, even in heavy seas...but they can slide if not
secured. In most cases, all that's needed is a non-skid mat under
it...Walmart, K-Mart etc sell some rubber kitchen shelf liner by the
roll that's perfect for this application (and in the galley...NOTHING
moves on it...I've seen an otherwise unsecured microwave stay put on a
boat heeled 20 degrees) and straps (lawn chair webbing works well). If
necessary or desired, you can also brace the corners with wood strips
epoxied to the hull. So secured, the tank will not move and remains
accessible for service and visual inspection.

Were she mine, I'd consider a more extensive mod to fit more tankage of
less unusual dimensions.

Were she mine (unless she's on the Great Lakes or other inland "no
discharge" waters--in which case, you can't legally use the macerator),
I'd put a Type I MSD on it--specifically a Lectra/San--backed up by a
small tank for use only if/when The discharge of treated waste is legal
in at least 90% of US coastal waters, and is a far more ecologically
sound solution to onboard waste management than a holding tank. Why
store waste aboard if each flush can legally go overboard without harm
to the environment?


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1

Peggie Hall wrote:
Seems we're not 32 anymore.

I'm continually astonished to rediscover that almost daily.

I suppose as long as we don't *look like* we've been run hard & put
away wet, we can keep this daily revelation in confidence.

A 45 gal tank should be more than adequate for a 37' boat. In fact, it's
about 50% larger than what most OEMs are installing today on boats that
size.

New owners tend to read "authoritative articles."

Yes, austenitic SS has pitted in MSD use since we first though it'd
work well in '76. (You should've seen the other & bigger boo-boos we
made with early commerical MSD's.)

I have seen them...recirculating systems is only one example.

But I do sort of miss all those suited-up group engineroom promo
sessions watching the rep drink the effluent & offer it around for
sales effect - after him already having overdone it at the Downtown
Athletic Club bar in studious preparation. :-) Even saw Ray Ryan take
a sip once (same job as Bob Somerville now hasG).

...metal WATER tanks rarely survive more than 20
years before springing a leak somewhere.

There are some that make it almost 20 yrs?? Never my good fortune even
with 1/2" coated plate.

What is the make/model age of the heads on the boat? If still
original--or even more than a few years old--they may or may not be
worth servicing...if, in fact, any parts or service kits are still
available. How many heads?

Naturally, 1st thought. 'Tis a '78 Fischer 37 w/1 original, not a PAR,
possibly Graco, returning to her this PM. Jovially, in the case of
dealing with new Owner who is also friend, patient gradualism is the
strategy of success. ;-)

Don't do it...foaming in tanks is neither recommended nor necessary.

It's sick for 1/2 dzn reasons, never would. I was wondering if
unenclosed foam was generally proscribed (anywhere) for other reasons
(a side curiousity).

For
one thing, federal law requires that there be some means of determining
when a waste tank is at least 3/4 full (this is supposed to prevent
accidental overflows out the tank vent).

Isn't it nice that we've legislated common sense?

If the level in the tank cannot
be determined by visual inspection--which foaming it in would make
impossible, a gauge is required.

She's so equipped. But trusting any tank indicator of any kind is
another matter, yes? :-) We grew up variously feeling, tapping &
test-cocking tanks daily ('cept cofferdamed cargo - those get
cofferdams sounded). Licenses of competency & lives have been lost for
relying on the best indicators. Ingrained practicehee-hee.

Tanks rarely bounce, even in heavy seas...but they can slide if not
secured. In most cases, all that's needed is a non-skid mat under
it...Walmart, K-Mart etc sell some rubber kitchen shelf liner by the
roll that's perfect for this application (and in the galley...NOTHING
moves on it...I've seen an otherwise unsecured microwave stay put on a
boat heeled 20 degrees) and straps (lawn chair webbing works well).

I'm ever astonished how the fairer sex is so much better at coming up
with such things.

If
necessary or desired, you can also brace the corners with wood strips
epoxied to the hull. So secured, the tank will not move and remains
accessible for service and visual inspection.

We may add the oft-overlooked provision of insuring adequate bottom
support along its structural length.

Were she mine (unless she's on the Great Lakes or other inland "no
discharge" waters--in which case, you can't legally use the macerator),
I'd put a Type I MSD on it--specifically a Lectra/San--backed up by a
small tank for use only if/when The discharge of treated waste is legal
in at least 90% of US coastal waters, and is a far more ecologically
sound solution to onboard waste management than a holding tank. Why
store waste aboard if each flush can legally go overboard without harm
to the environment?

Too smart, Peggy - remember that patient gradualismBG? (translation:
discussion deferred until he's done getting raped by the yard on more
urgent & pretasked items for refloating, & has figured out how to
comfortably operate half the stuff aboard, such as all the electrical
toys that previous, bored owners with too much money tend to add
haphazardly to such a vessel.) Type I is very fitting as he'll likely
head south & bang a right at Chesapeake every year. Give me a month
with him after we refloat & deliver her. :-)

BTW when we were in the thick of it I did call Ron's. They are
fantastic & fast to communicate & deal with, & offered me more favors
than I should print here. So thanks to you there is a valuable future
relationship established.

BstRgds,
Frank

On 26 Jun 2005 09:07:23 -0700, wrote:

(Nice post snipped)

chuckleYou are very right in rather graciously implying with an
admirable level of restraint, that a lifetime of acquired prejudice in
one sector of marine life may or may not be detrimental when applied to
another.

It happens that we lucked out for the time being with this one by
acting like commerical guys, by the grace of God, though we got damned
dirty & tired doing so. ;-) Seems we're not 32 anymore.

By similar Providence the associated hoses, diverter, macerator & etc.
are in good serviceable cond. Sort of "a stopped clock is right twice
a day" evolution. ;-)

A foundational problem is this instance is that of a '70's boat never
envisioned to need MSD, backfitted with a tank that entirely fills the
only reasonably avail space without extensive mod, which is still only
1/2 the capacity of present-day practice, i.e. 45 USG/37' LOA
motorsailer. I'm sure you've seen this movie 1,000 times, perhaps
minus the same humorous cast of characters.

Off-the shelf poly options reduce this to 30 USG on a good day.

Were she mine, I'd consider a more extensive mod to fit more tankage of
less unusual dimensions.

Good news is she has a free berth alongside a commercial cargo terminal
that has great heads inside. :-)

Yes, austenitic SS has pitted in MSD use since we first though it'd
work well in '76. (You should've seen the other & bigger boo-boos we
made with early commerical MSD's.) We can get it fabbed for free,
though, & flush & repassivate it view she will only be afloat 3 mos/yr
for the next decade.

Another issue/question arose during this minor Chinese firedrill:
urethane foam. Tank had been foamed in-place for support. Naturally
this made it a b*tch to break free & remove, given nearly no working
clearance (with an unscheduled main halyard "stress test" in the
bargaing). But I am unclear as to the use of unprotected/un-enclosed
urethane foam aboard a yatch. You can't even do this ashore in a
house, though there is so much other dangerous stuff to burn in a yacht
that maybe it is moot. It there a r/b guideline or other generally
accepted practice relating to its use aboard a yatch, which you may be
aware of? BTW carpenter ants looouuuuvv urethane foam, too, as a
preferred multi-unit condo, and they will find it even if it is under
concrete on all sides or 25' off the ground inside a structure.

BstRgds,
- f.

Nice post, Frank. A period, vintage, whimsical note that gave every
evidence of being authored by a sentrient being.

Keep 'em coming. Alternately, I'll have some of the same sauce you're
using.

Brian Whatcott