On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:03:58 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

Brian
//
And sorry, but there is a very long standing "news group etiquette" among
nettizens that precludes using full names or real e-mail addresses.
///
Dan

It's at this point, if I weren't such a 'umble fellow, that I would
start mentioning my posting history of about 15 years on Arpa/Internet
News: I didn't think anybody has been standing very much longer than
that, but as I say, I could be wrong, so i won't... :-)
..
So feel precluded from using your real name if you must, but I ain't
chicken..... an I do know how to tuck the napkin in my collar, even,
an all that etiquette stuff.

/jest jokin'!

The Joker at FakeNet.net

I think Morgan is looking for a book covering the design basics. His
description of "day sailer/dinghy" means no me just that - a vessel
perhaps for the family to go out in for a jolly on the water. I
certainly do not get any inference that he wishes to design a racing
dinghy.

The John Teale book is an excellent book as an introduction to boat
design and I used it to design a 72ft steel vessel. I also bought two
Dave Gerr books:

The Nature of Boats - excellent on every topic of
power/sail/crusing/racing with loads of useful information in it. A
must if starting from scratch as it will make you pull things apart
afterwards.

Boat Strength - his simplification of all the construction standards
to achieve the correct hull strength in any building material. Again
used in the design of my 72 ft steel vessel to check the hull
scantling strengths.

On 5 Oct 2004 02:15:11 -0700, Rob wrote:

I think Morgan is looking for a book covering the design basics. His
description of "day sailer/dinghy" means no me just that - a vessel
perhaps for the family to go out in for a jolly on the water. I
certainly do not get any inference that he wishes to design a racing
dinghy.

The John Teale book is an excellent book as an introduction to boat
design and I used it to design a 72ft steel vessel. I also bought two
Dave Gerr books:

The Nature of Boats - excellent on every topic of
power/sail/crusing/racing with loads of useful information in it. A
must if starting from scratch as it will make you pull things apart
afterwards.

Boat Strength - his simplification of all the construction standards
to achieve the correct hull strength in any building material. Again
used in the design of my 72 ft steel vessel to check the hull
scantling strengths.

If I get the feeling that I can't get far enough with Teale's Book, wich one
do you consider to be the best complement?

Still going for daysaling.


Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

If I get the feeling that I can't get far enough with Teale's Book, wich one
do you consider to be the best complement?

I got started with TF Jones "Boats to Go" (1990?). Not racers but, light
displacement daysailers, canoes, kayaks, garveys, that "go fsst with low
power". Builds mostly in plywood. Leans toward classic desings.
Experiments with multihulls. Includes many notes about calculations and
materials. He followed up with "New Plywood Boats" in 2000 so the info is
pretty current. www.jonesboats.com. the Dobler 16 on his website is a
large light fast daysailer but not the most comfortable. I think
athwarship seating would impreove it. the seating on the desing (which
isn't his) is used in racing dingy's.

However I have read over 80 books on boatbuilding and design (that's how
many there are in the Ottawa public library system) from which I've made
many notes and photocopies. There's no one book covering all you need to
know on dingy design. the marekt probably isns't big enough to justify
publication. I think it's more economical to put what you know on a
website than to try an publish a book for a limited market. Many people
do that, one of the big benefits of the Internet IMHO.


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On 5 Oct 2004 15:02:40 GMT, William R. Watt wrote:

Morgan Ohlson ) writes:

If I get the feeling that I can't get far enough with Teale's Book, wich one
do you consider to be the best complement?

I got started with TF Jones "Boats to Go" (1990?). Not racers but, light
displacement daysailers, canoes, kayaks, garveys, that "go fsst with low
power". Builds mostly in plywood. Leans toward classic desings.

Some yeras ago a collegue of mine said:
"- Some read all books, others read a few ten times each and consentrate on
developing the feeling for it."

A book can only give a few facts and formulas. The undertanding and feeling
is up to the reader.


There's no one book covering all you need to
know on dingy design.

What do a designer need...and what is preferred?

Do anyone know everything?


Morgan O.

Morgan Ohlson writes:
The formulas are the same, as well as the process itself. A seaworthy dinghy
may also be slow, but both aspects apply, but in different perspektives.

So, basicly a good handbook on design should deal with different goals.
Isn't that the essence of design?

AFAIK, yes. To make sure I get what you're saying, you want to know how
to derive the basic proportions of a small sailboat to get the result of
a boat with the performance characteristics you want. That certainly
sounds like the essence of design.

Unfortunately, it's a fairly involved process if you're starting from a
blank piece of paper. It's much easier (and much more common) to start
wiht a boat that behaves approximately the way you want, and then change
a few things about it to make it closer to your ideal. With some fairly
elementary design & engineering knowledge, you can do this and quantify
the expected results.


I'm not looking for instant plans.

Good- although IMHO the "instant boats" offer a wide range of
capabilities with a substantial benefit of easy building.


William R. Watt wrote:
the design of a racing dingy is quite a lot different from the design of
a cruising dingy which differs again from the design of a pleasure sailing
dingy.

Actually, they're all the same process. The only difference is applying
different priorities to obtain different results.


... I have not come across anything which covers all three.

The best text IMHO is Lars & Eliasson 'Principles of Sailing Yacht
Design' although the example given is a keelboat. They do explain all
the principles so that it is very easy to infer how to manipulate teh
specs of a boat being designed toward a desired goal.


racing dingy's are lightwight, uncomforatable, and festooned with
expensive "gofasts".

Baloney. Racing dinghies are dinghies that are raced. Is a Flying Scot
lightweight or uncomfortable?

If you're talking about comparing strictly by performance type rather
than usage, then you're still way wrong. A *fast* dinghy has a high sail
are -to- weight ratio, a high righting moment -to- weight ratio, and
usually rather flattish aft sections.

You cannot bolt on "gofast." You can design & build a rig to be
controllable & highly adjustable, and put on rigging to accomplish same.
It need not be expensive or complex. OTOH many "cruising" oriented boats
(not just dinghies) are unnecessarily difficult to handle because the
rigs are cumbersome in an attempt to be "strong" and they have
sacrificed too much controllability.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:18:46 -0400, DSK wrote:



You cannot bolt on "gofast." You can design & build a rig to be
controllable & highly adjustable, and put on rigging to accomplish same.
It need not be expensive or complex. OTOH many "cruising" oriented boats
(not just dinghies) are unnecessarily difficult to handle because the
rigs are cumbersome in an attempt to be "strong" and they have
sacrificed too much controllability.

Could you explain this, please. I undertand you mean that omthing in some
cruiser rigs is "to much" and contra productive.... How?

What to beware of?


Morgan

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:33:45 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:18:46 -0400, DSK wrote:



You cannot bolt on "gofast." You can design & build a rig to be
controllable & highly adjustable, and put on rigging to accomplish same.
It need not be expensive or complex. OTOH many "cruising" oriented boats
(not just dinghies) are unnecessarily difficult to handle because the
rigs are cumbersome in an attempt to be "strong" and they have
sacrificed too much controllability.

Could you explain this, please. I undertand you mean that omthing in some
cruiser rigs is "to much" and contra productive.... How?

What to beware of?

I expect DSK can answer for himself, but an obvious one is a stiff,
heavy mast that doesn't allow convenient flattening of the sail.

NB: The following is not intended to be a flame. Many of your
questions sound as if you are not familiar with small-boat sailing. If
you get some significant sailing under your belt in existing
production boats, you will have a much better idea of where you wanbt
to go, and how to get there.

If you are not racing, it is all the more important that you _like_
the behavior of the boat you are sailing. The only way to find out
what you like is to sail, a lot.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?

Rodney Myrvaagnes ) writes:

If you are not racing, it is all the more important that you _like_
the behavior of the boat you are sailing. The only way to find out
what you like is to sail, a lot.

First time boatbuilders tend to like any boat they build regardless of
performance, and defend their ideosyncracies. Dingy cruisers tend to
ignore performance while praising versatility and other such advantages,
as evidenced by the many Potter's, Comapacs, Dovekies, and such. I suspect
many dingy cruising sailors are campers and wanderers first, and sailors
last.


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On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:28:13 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:33:45 GMT, Morgan Ohlson
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:18:46 -0400, DSK wrote:



You cannot bolt on "gofast." You can design & build a rig to be
controllable & highly adjustable, and put on rigging to accomplish same.
It need not be expensive or complex. OTOH many "cruising" oriented boats
(not just dinghies) are unnecessarily difficult to handle because the
rigs are cumbersome in an attempt to be "strong" and they have
sacrificed too much controllability.

Could you explain this, please. I undertand you mean that omthing in some
cruiser rigs is "to much" and contra productive.... How?

What to beware of?

I expect DSK can answer for himself, but an obvious one is a stiff,
heavy mast that doesn't allow convenient flattening of the sail.

NB: The following is not intended to be a flame. Many of your
questions sound as if you are not familiar with small-boat sailing.

The first problem is my "sail english". The second is that I havn'yt sailed
much reasently and the third is that
;o) may aim isn't relly to sail, more to transport.

This makes me probably more than usually foused on solving a line of
dilemmas as fast as possible without the big bucks.

The ultra lite sailer I intend doesn't even exist. The Wayfarer has a weight
of 80% more then my maximum. Still it is the closest manufactured
alternative so far.


If
you get some significant sailing under your belt in existing
production boats, you will have a much better idea of where you wanbt
to go, and how to get there.

As I say, I'm not into sailing for sailing, more like lake hiking.


If you are not racing, it is all the more important that you _like_
the behavior of the boat you are sailing. The only way to find out
what you like is to sail, a lot.

Not an alternative in practice.

But a reasonable suggestion.


Morgan O.