Stephen Baker wrote:

I don't think it's Mankind as such, Peggie - I think it's just governments with
nothing else to do but sit and make laws ;-)

Most laws are a result of pressure on lawmakers from special interest
groups who have an agenda. If boat builders are forced to eliminate swim
platforms and transom cockpit seating or make hugely expensive
modifications to gasoline engines to reduce CO danger, it won't be
because government lackeys dreamed up the idea all by themselves...it
will be because lawmakers are pressured into it by boat owners who've
killed or disabled their own children through their own stupidity.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Brought to you by the same people who require the word "FISH" on every
refrigerated 18 wheeler :-( I guess some idiot slipped and fell on a frozen
flounder :-( Wonder what that little program is cost us a year to
administer?

Fred

"Jason" wrote in message
om...
There's an article on boating that appeared in the LA Times today. The
writer's email is

Stern alert

Dragging behind a boat or even hanging out near exhaust puts boaters
at risk for carbon monoxide poisoning. Some blame engine design and
lack of warning labels, but others point to operator error.


http://www.latimes.com/features/outd...lines-outdoors

By Charles Duhigg
Times Staff Writer

The air that killed Mark Tostado on Labor Day weekend was calm and
hot, the product of the sunny days that draw boaters year-round to
Lake Havasu, on the California-Arizona line.

Tostado, 31, a Huntington Beach personal fitness trainer and military
veteran, had waded into the lake's shallow Bridgewater Channel last
year to say goodbye to a woman standing behind two idling boats. She
playfully stole his hat and turned away. When she looked back less
than a minute later, Tostado was gone. His body was found the next
day.

An autopsy revealed that Tostado's blood was 40.7% saturated with
carbon monoxide, a colorless and odorless gas released as engines burn
gasoline. Tostado presumably breathed a pocket of exhaust from nearby
boats, passed out and drowned.

A spate of such deaths, more than 100 nationwide since 1990, prompted
the California Assembly to recently pass a bill that would force boat
sellers to put carbon monoxide warning labels on vessels and outlaw
boaters from standing or hanging onto swim platforms attached to the
stern while an engine is running. The state Senate passed the
legislation Monday.

But the families of carbon monoxide victims, legislators and
physicians want boat makers and the Coast Guard, which regulates boat
and marine engine design, to do more. They say improved marine engines
and an aggressive public-awareness campaign about carbon monoxide
dangers will help save lives.

In addition to the 111 confirmed deaths from carbon monoxide,
independent and government scientists say that boat exhaust may be a
factor in 40% of all drownings near boats, as many as 200 per year.
The data are uncertain because many drowning victims never get tested
for carbon monoxide poisoning.

"We solved this problem with cars," said Dr. Robert Baron, medical
director of the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area in Arizona. "If
five or 10 years ago boat manufacturers had put efforts into research,
these people would still be alive."

Boat and engine manufacturers say that it's time-consuming and costly
to develop new engines, and that boaters behave irresponsibly.

They point to "teak surfing," in which swimmers hang off the swim
platform. In May 2003, teak surfer Anthony Farr, 11, inhaled carbon
monoxide from a boat's exhaust pipes under the platform, passed out
and drowned in Folsom Lake near Sacramento.

"The issue is the stupidity of people who let their kids hang around
the business end of a boat," said Larry Meddock, director of the Water
Sports Industry Assn. "If this was a crisis, the Coast Guard would be
responding differently. They haven't issued any regulations on this
issue."

Platform dangers

Researchers from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and
Health say carbon monoxide poisoning fatalities began increasing in
the 1970s when boats were equipped with swim platforms. Scientists
estimate that three inhalations of carbon monoxide-rich air can cause
death.

"When I was growing up, there were no swim platforms, just ladders on
the sides of boats," said Tom McAlpine, an Alabama lawyer who
represented the estate of a child who died of carbon monoxide
poisoning after hanging onto the swim platform of an idling boat.

As part of a settlement, manufacturer Correct Craft began adding
carbon monoxide warnings to its boats in the late '90s. The
2-by-4-inch sticker reads, in part, "Stay off and keep away from
boarding platform while engine is running."

Meanwhile, the company and another major boat maker, MasterCraft, sell
showering attachments that many users operate while standing on the
swim platform. According to boat dealers, the engine must be running
to provide a steady stream of hot water for the shower.

"One of their own designs forces people to stand in an exposure area.
It doesn't make any sense," said Jane McCammon, a researcher for the
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.

Correct Craft executives and the company's chief engineer, Bill Snook,
declined to answer questions regarding the shower units. A MasterCraft
representative said its owners' manuals and decals warn against
standing on the swim platform while the engine is running.

Weak warnings?

Boat industry critics, including physician Baron, attorney McAlpine
and researchers from the national Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, which, in a 2000 report, recommended removal of swim
platforms, say the manufacturers' current sticker warnings are
insufficient.

Studies by the Coast Guard and other government agencies show that
carbon monoxide poisoning can occur inside boats, particularly in back
seats.

"CO levels in the stern [back] seat of a ski boat are high enough to
be cause for concern," one study reads. "CO levels at 20 feet behind
the towed boat are high enough to affect towed tubers who tend to be
young children."

In a 1997 incident, a 13-year-old girl lay on the back seat of an
open-air powerboat as it headed to an Arizona lakeshore. Fifteen
minutes later, when the boat docked, she was dead of carbon monoxide
poisoning, according to the examining physician.

The American Boat and Yacht Council recommends that stickers on boats
include warnings to not "occupy aft lounging areas when engine[s] or
generator[s] is running." Stickers by MasterCraft and Correct Craft
contain no such warnings about back-seat risks.

"The boat companies encourage people to sit back there by putting in
seats and drink holders," said Teresa Stark, chief of staff to
California Assemblyman Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood), who introduced
the bill that would require boats sold in California to carry large
warning stickers. The measure would also prohibit boaters from
occupying, hanging onto or bodysurfing behind swim platforms while a
boat was operating. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not stated his
position on the bill, but Stark expects him to sign it into law when
it reaches his desk.

Boat manufacturers maintain that operator error, not boat design,
results in carbon monoxide poisoning.

"There is virtually no risk of carbon monoxide poisoning" when boaters
comply with state and Coast Guard regulations, Snook, Correct Craft's
chief engineer, said in an e-mail.

"It's not my fault you've got parents who stick their kid behind an
exhaust pipe," said Rick Lee, president of Fineline Industries, a
powerboat manufacturer. "Why weren't these kids wearing life jackets?
For over 80 years, society has been smart enough to not breathe in
stinky exhaust."

But Glenn Palmer, a 20-year Phoenix paramedic trained in carbon
monoxide detection, says he had no clue when refueling his boat in
November that he was inhaling the odorless gas. The refueling
mechanism required a running engine.

"There was no smell of exhaust or fumes, no lightheadedness, nothing,"
Palmer said. "I was standing there talking to my wife for about five
minutes, when she said my eyes rolled up in mid-sentence and bam, I
was out. It hit me so fast, if I had fallen in the water, I would have
had no chance."

New controls

In the 1960s and 1970s, Congress addressed concerns over carbon
monoxide emissions from automobiles by passing laws that required car
manufacturers, but not boat makers, to decrease emissions.

Relatives of carbon monoxide victims say manufacturers have had
decades to develop cleaner engines. Use of catalytic converters - a
honeycomb filter that transforms carbon monoxide into safer gases -
would essentially eliminate the emissions, they say. Boat exhaust
contains 188 times more carbon monoxide than the average emission from
an automobile.

But marine engine experts say the automotive solution won't work in
water.

"Catalysts and water don't mix," said Dick Rowe, founder and chief
executive of Indmar Products, a major marine engine manufacturer.
"When you put an engine in the water, everything changes."

By 2008, however, the California Air Resources Board will effectively
require new boat engines to incorporate catalytic converters. To
establish the standard, it hired the Southwest Research Institute in
San Antonio to equip four marine engines with catalytic converters.
The project took four years and cost $1 million, according to chief
engineer James Carroll, and the engines have successfully performed in
freshwater lakes for more than 400 hours.

Regulators, including Andrew Spencer, an air pollution specialist at
the Air Resources Board, say manufacturers could have produced safer
engines more than a decade ago if they had made them a priority.

Manufacturers say they expect to surmount the technological challenges
before 2008, but until then, consumers will dictate their agenda.

"Why haven't we solved carbon monoxide?" asked Rowe of Indmar.
"Because there are other research priorities that are rewarded more by
consumers. We're not sure we know how to market a catalytic
converter-equipped boat. We are a small company. We can't afford to
spend money on research consumers won't appreciate."

Critics also blame the Coast Guard for insufficiently policing the
industry. The guard has no regulations related to carbon monoxide.

"How can the Coast Guard know this is happening and not require
warnings?" asked Mike Farr, father of the boy who died while teak
surfing on Folsom Lake near Sacramento. "How come there are no
regulations from the Coast Guard about boat design to keep people away
from the backs of boats?"

The Coast Guard's specialist on carbon monoxide emissions defends the
agency's approach, noting that it sponsors media campaigns and
workshops about the dangers of the gas.

"We have raised the issue of requiring warning labels at our
workshops, but the manufacturers have blocked that proposal," said
Richard Blackman, an engineer in the Coast Guard's Office of Boating
Safety. "I'm not sure it's worth the investment."

Blackman said the Coast Guard is reluctant to issue regulations that
will meet industry resistance. "The Coast Guard says if industry can
regulate themselves, then it's in the best interest of everyone for
companies to choose what should be done," he said.

Meanwhile, many boaters blame adults and fate for carbon monoxide
deaths. "I would never let a kid hang off the back of a boat without a
life jacket," Charlie Hardke, 32, said as he drove his powerboat
around Folsom Lake. "But if there are toxic levels of carbon monoxide,
I'd like to know."

One of Hardke's passengers, Robyn Westlake, a physician specializing
in internal medicine, floated in the water near the back of the boat.

"I don't think it is any worse than the freeway, is it?" she asked.

On a day set aside for water play, victims often do not realize air
quality is hazardous until it's too late. Charles Duhigg is a Times
staff writer. He can be reached at .

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:29:30 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

We're sneaking up on certification here in the States. Little by little it's
becoming part of boating.

It's amazing to me that one needs to pass a competency test of some sort to
operate a car, motorcycle, gun or an airplane but we turn 'em loose open the
water with no restrictions here.

Someday we'll catch up to our Northern Neighbors on this one. (c:

We can't really boast...the PCOC (Personal Craft Operator Card...I
think...my wallet's downstairs) is a pretty basic test that you can
sit for in 15 minutes at a recreational trade show. The Canadian Power
Squadron tests for it in conjunction with their training, and that
makes it a lot better as there's a context of Colregs, pilotage,
safety, even marlinespike seamanship.

The only PRACTICAL boating experience around here is the "Toronto
Harbour Licence", a fairly blatant cash grab by an unelected
"regulatory body" of political lifers, bagmen and other appointees,
squatting in horrid luxury "administering" a Federal port very few
commercial ships now visit. Still, in order to motor about their
"waters", you are supposed to have the Harbour Licence, and it does
require you to demonstrate on your boat or even a Zodiac that you can
dock, reverse under power, pick up a hat out of the water, that sort
of thing.

Half the people sailing, of course, have never heard of it, just the
Coast Guard-issued PCOC, which is currently grandfathered to 2009, I
believe. All new boaters over 12 must have it, and I think no boaters
under that age are allowed to drive alone in anything above a pool
mattress or inner tube G

R.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 01:32:38 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Btw...Canada has the best "drunk boating" law on the planet--at least of
any that I'm aware of. No alcohol consumption at all, even at anchor,
on any boat that doesn't have sleeping accomodations. That ensures that
anyone who does drink away from the dock has to stay there long enough
to sleep it off. I wish the US would adopt the same law.

Basically, I don't drink...ever...while underway, whether working
sheets or tiller. It doesn't occur to me, just as drinking while
driving or spinning plates or threading needles doesn't occur to me
G

I will allow drinking underway for anyone I don't deem crew...i.e.
"ballast" a.k.a. "honoured guests". G

When docked, I relax. When anchored, I watch my intake closely, and at
least one other member of the crew must watch also, because while I
don't stand "anchor watches" per se, I make sure no one responsible is
so hammered that they can't react if we drag in the night.

Local forecasts are helpful in this regard...G

If someone dies because they were hanging on the stern, then they are doing
us a favor ...hopefully they do this before they procreate the species.

Brian


"Jason" wrote in message
om...
There's an article on boating that appeared in the LA Times today. The
writer's email is

Stern alert

Dragging behind a boat or even hanging out near exhaust puts boaters
at risk for carbon monoxide poisoning. Some blame engine design and
lack of warning labels, but others point to operator error.


http://www.latimes.com/features/outd...lines-outdoors

By Charles Duhigg
Times Staff Writer

The air that killed Mark Tostado on Labor Day weekend was calm and
hot, the product of the sunny days that draw boaters year-round to
Lake Havasu, on the California-Arizona line.

Tostado, 31, a Huntington Beach personal fitness trainer and military
veteran, had waded into the lake's shallow Bridgewater Channel last
year to say goodbye to a woman standing behind two idling boats. She
playfully stole his hat and turned away. When she looked back less
than a minute later, Tostado was gone. His body was found the next
day.

An autopsy revealed that Tostado's blood was 40.7% saturated with
carbon monoxide, a colorless and odorless gas released as engines burn
gasoline. Tostado presumably breathed a pocket of exhaust from nearby
boats, passed out and drowned.

A spate of such deaths, more than 100 nationwide since 1990, prompted
the California Assembly to recently pass a bill that would force boat
sellers to put carbon monoxide warning labels on vessels and outlaw
boaters from standing or hanging onto swim platforms attached to the
stern while an engine is running. The state Senate passed the
legislation Monday.

But the families of carbon monoxide victims, legislators and
physicians want boat makers and the Coast Guard, which regulates boat
and marine engine design, to do more. They say improved marine engines
and an aggressive public-awareness campaign about carbon monoxide
dangers will help save lives.

In addition to the 111 confirmed deaths from carbon monoxide,
independent and government scientists say that boat exhaust may be a
factor in 40% of all drownings near boats, as many as 200 per year.
The data are uncertain because many drowning victims never get tested
for carbon monoxide poisoning.

"We solved this problem with cars," said Dr. Robert Baron, medical
director of the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area in Arizona. "If
five or 10 years ago boat manufacturers had put efforts into research,
these people would still be alive."

Boat and engine manufacturers say that it's time-consuming and costly
to develop new engines, and that boaters behave irresponsibly.

They point to "teak surfing," in which swimmers hang off the swim
platform. In May 2003, teak surfer Anthony Farr, 11, inhaled carbon
monoxide from a boat's exhaust pipes under the platform, passed out
and drowned in Folsom Lake near Sacramento.

"The issue is the stupidity of people who let their kids hang around
the business end of a boat," said Larry Meddock, director of the Water
Sports Industry Assn. "If this was a crisis, the Coast Guard would be
responding differently. They haven't issued any regulations on this
issue."

Platform dangers

Researchers from the National Institute for Occupational Safety and
Health say carbon monoxide poisoning fatalities began increasing in
the 1970s when boats were equipped with swim platforms. Scientists
estimate that three inhalations of carbon monoxide-rich air can cause
death.

"When I was growing up, there were no swim platforms, just ladders on
the sides of boats," said Tom McAlpine, an Alabama lawyer who
represented the estate of a child who died of carbon monoxide
poisoning after hanging onto the swim platform of an idling boat.

As part of a settlement, manufacturer Correct Craft began adding
carbon monoxide warnings to its boats in the late '90s. The
2-by-4-inch sticker reads, in part, "Stay off and keep away from
boarding platform while engine is running."

Meanwhile, the company and another major boat maker, MasterCraft, sell
showering attachments that many users operate while standing on the
swim platform. According to boat dealers, the engine must be running
to provide a steady stream of hot water for the shower.

"One of their own designs forces people to stand in an exposure area.
It doesn't make any sense," said Jane McCammon, a researcher for the
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.

Correct Craft executives and the company's chief engineer, Bill Snook,
declined to answer questions regarding the shower units. A MasterCraft
representative said its owners' manuals and decals warn against
standing on the swim platform while the engine is running.

Weak warnings?

Boat industry critics, including physician Baron, attorney McAlpine
and researchers from the national Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, which, in a 2000 report, recommended removal of swim
platforms, say the manufacturers' current sticker warnings are
insufficient.

Studies by the Coast Guard and other government agencies show that
carbon monoxide poisoning can occur inside boats, particularly in back
seats.

"CO levels in the stern [back] seat of a ski boat are high enough to
be cause for concern," one study reads. "CO levels at 20 feet behind
the towed boat are high enough to affect towed tubers who tend to be
young children."

In a 1997 incident, a 13-year-old girl lay on the back seat of an
open-air powerboat as it headed to an Arizona lakeshore. Fifteen
minutes later, when the boat docked, she was dead of carbon monoxide
poisoning, according to the examining physician.

The American Boat and Yacht Council recommends that stickers on boats
include warnings to not "occupy aft lounging areas when engine[s] or
generator[s] is running." Stickers by MasterCraft and Correct Craft
contain no such warnings about back-seat risks.

"The boat companies encourage people to sit back there by putting in
seats and drink holders," said Teresa Stark, chief of staff to
California Assemblyman Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood), who introduced
the bill that would require boats sold in California to carry large
warning stickers. The measure would also prohibit boaters from
occupying, hanging onto or bodysurfing behind swim platforms while a
boat was operating. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not stated his
position on the bill, but Stark expects him to sign it into law when
it reaches his desk.

Boat manufacturers maintain that operator error, not boat design,
results in carbon monoxide poisoning.

"There is virtually no risk of carbon monoxide poisoning" when boaters
comply with state and Coast Guard regulations, Snook, Correct Craft's
chief engineer, said in an e-mail.

"It's not my fault you've got parents who stick their kid behind an
exhaust pipe," said Rick Lee, president of Fineline Industries, a
powerboat manufacturer. "Why weren't these kids wearing life jackets?
For over 80 years, society has been smart enough to not breathe in
stinky exhaust."

But Glenn Palmer, a 20-year Phoenix paramedic trained in carbon
monoxide detection, says he had no clue when refueling his boat in
November that he was inhaling the odorless gas. The refueling
mechanism required a running engine.

"There was no smell of exhaust or fumes, no lightheadedness, nothing,"
Palmer said. "I was standing there talking to my wife for about five
minutes, when she said my eyes rolled up in mid-sentence and bam, I
was out. It hit me so fast, if I had fallen in the water, I would have
had no chance."

New controls

In the 1960s and 1970s, Congress addressed concerns over carbon
monoxide emissions from automobiles by passing laws that required car
manufacturers, but not boat makers, to decrease emissions.

Relatives of carbon monoxide victims say manufacturers have had
decades to develop cleaner engines. Use of catalytic converters - a
honeycomb filter that transforms carbon monoxide into safer gases -
would essentially eliminate the emissions, they say. Boat exhaust
contains 188 times more carbon monoxide than the average emission from
an automobile.

But marine engine experts say the automotive solution won't work in
water.

"Catalysts and water don't mix," said Dick Rowe, founder and chief
executive of Indmar Products, a major marine engine manufacturer.
"When you put an engine in the water, everything changes."

By 2008, however, the California Air Resources Board will effectively
require new boat engines to incorporate catalytic converters. To
establish the standard, it hired the Southwest Research Institute in
San Antonio to equip four marine engines with catalytic converters.
The project took four years and cost $1 million, according to chief
engineer James Carroll, and the engines have successfully performed in
freshwater lakes for more than 400 hours.

Regulators, including Andrew Spencer, an air pollution specialist at
the Air Resources Board, say manufacturers could have produced safer
engines more than a decade ago if they had made them a priority.

Manufacturers say they expect to surmount the technological challenges
before 2008, but until then, consumers will dictate their agenda.

"Why haven't we solved carbon monoxide?" asked Rowe of Indmar.
"Because there are other research priorities that are rewarded more by
consumers. We're not sure we know how to market a catalytic
converter-equipped boat. We are a small company. We can't afford to
spend money on research consumers won't appreciate."

Critics also blame the Coast Guard for insufficiently policing the
industry. The guard has no regulations related to carbon monoxide.

"How can the Coast Guard know this is happening and not require
warnings?" asked Mike Farr, father of the boy who died while teak
surfing on Folsom Lake near Sacramento. "How come there are no
regulations from the Coast Guard about boat design to keep people away
from the backs of boats?"

The Coast Guard's specialist on carbon monoxide emissions defends the
agency's approach, noting that it sponsors media campaigns and
workshops about the dangers of the gas.

"We have raised the issue of requiring warning labels at our
workshops, but the manufacturers have blocked that proposal," said
Richard Blackman, an engineer in the Coast Guard's Office of Boating
Safety. "I'm not sure it's worth the investment."

Blackman said the Coast Guard is reluctant to issue regulations that
will meet industry resistance. "The Coast Guard says if industry can
regulate themselves, then it's in the best interest of everyone for
companies to choose what should be done," he said.

Meanwhile, many boaters blame adults and fate for carbon monoxide
deaths. "I would never let a kid hang off the back of a boat without a
life jacket," Charlie Hardke, 32, said as he drove his powerboat
around Folsom Lake. "But if there are toxic levels of carbon monoxide,
I'd like to know."

One of Hardke's passengers, Robyn Westlake, a physician specializing
in internal medicine, floated in the water near the back of the boat.

"I don't think it is any worse than the freeway, is it?" she asked.

On a day set aside for water play, victims often do not realize air
quality is hazardous until it's too late. Charles Duhigg is a Times
staff writer. He can be reached at .

Money. Taxes in the form of fees and licenses. No thanks. Show me
statistics that prove boating licensing resulted in fewer deaths and
injuries.

Brian


"Dan" wrote in message
...
We're sneaking up on certification here in the States. Little by little
it's
becoming part of boating.

It's amazing to me that one needs to pass a competency test of some sort
to
operate a car, motorcycle, gun or an airplane but we turn 'em loose open
the
water with no restrictions here.

Someday we'll catch up to our Northern Neighbors on this one. (c:


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

In Canada all power boat operators must pass a test and be licenced.
This sopnds like something which can be included on such a test. The
operator of a powerboat boat is responsible for the safety of its
occupants?

Peggie Hall ) writes:
The only thing "great" about that article is how clearly it
demonstrates
that some people are too stupid to own a boat...how determined they
are
to be protected from their own stupidity and that the rest of us pay
for
that protection. Anyone who has at least a room temperature IQ should
know better than to breathe engine exhaust...from a car OR a boat!

Btw...I've owned boats and/or been around 'em for most of my 60 years,
and I THINK my IQ is at least room temperature...but this makes NO
sense
me:

"But Glenn Palmer... says he had no clue when refueling his boat...The
refueling mechanism required a running engine...."

I've never heard of ANY refueling system that requires a running
engine...in fact always been taught that correct safety procedure
require just the opposite--that NOTHING be on...not the engines, not
the
blowers, nor anything electrical or electronic during fueling. Even
blowers should not be turned on till AFTER fueling.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems
and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"

http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1



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