On 22 Aug 2004 07:46:13 -0700, (Tim)
wrote:

What I would like to know is if these saddles would be up to the job
of supporting the spinnaker sheet loads (I don't know for sure if that
is what they intended for originally)??

Assuming they were installed correctly would they be ok without a
backing plate??

Being new to owning a boat (I have sailed for years but never done
much maintenance) I want to make sure I am doing the right thing
before using them with the spinnnaker.

I have never heard of your boat, but I can suggest some general
points:

1) If the boat has never been raced, it may never have been subjected
to the strains associated with racing, which can be sustained and very
strong. So you can't really tell (unless those washers are dished or
the bolts are deformed) whether the existing set-up is sufficient for
your plans.

2) The fact that you are asking about backing plates indicates you are
concerned. I like backing plates over washers (and personally
retrofitted my boat with 1/4 aluminum plates under all deck gear,
cleats, and winches) because they spread loads more effectively over a
larger space, which reduces crazing of gelcoat, bending of bolts and
breaking of bedding seals, which WILL allow water into the boat.

So, if you intend on keeping this boat, I would say if access is easy,
replace all washers with plates. You can have aluminum custom cut, or
you can use power and/or shop tools (a drill press is particularly
handy) with 1/4 in. easily.

3) A lot of decks are cored to save weight and give laminate strength.
Great idea until water gets in, soaks things, freezes and splits new
crevices, corrodes bolts, etc....you get the picture. If you decide to
tackle this, you can closely examine the deck for signs of water/core
damage, and remedy the hard way (replace all damaged core...a BIG job)
or the easier way...ream out the core in each bolt hole, epoxy the
holes shut and then drill new bolt holes to accept the new, 1/4"
longer bolts for those backing plates you are installing. Bed the deck
gear, smear bedding on the shaft of the bolts, and bed the backing
plate. Dog down everything "finger tight". Let the bedding "set up"
from a day to a week (covered if necessary due to weather) and then
dog down tight to complete the seal. Trim any excess with a razor
knife.

You have now a much better chance of keeping water belowdecks, out of
the core itself (it's now completely "plugged" from the bolthole), and
you have strengthened the fitting substantially.

Many books and websites go into this in greater detail, but that's the
"core", pardon the pun.

Best of luck,
R.

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?


Bed the deck
gear, smear bedding on the shaft of the bolts, and bed the backing
plate. Dog down everything "finger tight". Let the bedding "set up"
from a day to a week (covered if necessary due to weather) and then
dog down tight to complete the seal. Trim any excess with a razor
knife.

Polysulfides such as Lifecaulk are OK, but a pain to clean up. The two-stage
tightening described earlier is a good idea.
I prefer traditional bedding compound such as Dolphinite or Bedlast. They
stay pliable. Two-stage tightening is not needed.

IF YOU EVER MIGHT WANT TO REMOVE THE HARDWARE, DON'T USE 3M 5200.



Dan wrote:

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?

Bed the deck
gear, smear bedding on the shaft of the bolts, and bed the backing
plate. Dog down everything "finger tight". Let the bedding "set up"
from a day to a week (covered if necessary due to weather) and then
dog down tight to complete the seal. Trim any excess with a razor
knife.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:12:16 -0400, Dan wrote:

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?

=============================================

Any good polysulfide bedding compound will be OK.

Several tips that have worked for me:

1. Counter sink the top of the screw holes about 1/16 to 3/32nds of
an inch. When you do the final tightening a small amount of bedding
compound will be forced into the recess and form an O-ring.

2. Prevent the hardware from twisting in the deck hole while
tightening. Twisting will pull away the bedding compound from where
it is needed. Tighten from below while someone on deck secures the
top end.

3. Mask off the deck and/or fitting and clean up the excess compound
with WD-40.

4. Wait several days before final tightening; trim off the squeeze
out with a razor blade or sharp utility knife.

I use 3M 4200 or Sikiflex 231, whatever is cheaper. I have had
acceptable (meaning I renew the bedding every five years or so) and
leak-free results with that, and it hard freezes here in January and
February, although covering the boat with a canvas tarp helps a lot.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:12:16 -0400, Dan wrote:

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?

Genoa track is troublesome, only because it's a lot of work to
properly seal the core with thickened epoxy. It's better, if messier,
in my opinion, to do the following:

Cut out from below all of the lower skin and balsa core. It's likely
sponge and rot, anyway. Save the lower skin.

Encapsulate marine grade plywood of the appropriate thickness.

When set up, carefully drill oversized bolt holes that correspond to
the (usually 1/4") genoa track holes on deck.

Epoxy these holes (3/8" - 1/2" is good). You should now have
essentially a waterproofed plank with waterproofed bolt holes.

Glass the wood (usually in several pieces to conform to the curve of
the topsides...YMMV) into place. Avoid leaving voids and be aware this
is a messy frickin' job.

Glass the lower skin back into place. The holes should line up...not
important if they don't.

Sand, grind or finish to your level of tolerance G.

Drill bolt holes through epoxied plugs in glassed in plywood.

Bed and bolt. Use backing plates (one per two or three bolts is easy
to shape and place. Bed the plates.

Even if you tear out the genoa track (unlikely as this part of the
deck is likely stronger than any other), you should be able to repair
the "core" easily.

Sound good?

My biggest problem was finding 1 1/4" T-track with 3" centers...they
don't make it anymore and I didn't want to do the entire track, just
butt a new piece into place and replace the core beneath.

R.

Thanks everyone. The core under this genoa track is plywood and apears
to be in good shape. The PO removed the track to paint the deck and
bent the track in half. When I straitened it, of course, it broke. so
I need new track. No big deal, just more $$$$
I have to re-core the deck as it is so when I get to the cap rail, if
it is soaked, I'll pull it off from the top also.
I have already over-drilled the holes for the cleates and the winches
and filled them with epoxy. I have drilled a starter hole with a
center drill to mark the spot, so to speak, and will finish drilling
after the deck is painted.
Thanks for the input,
Dan

I use 3M 4200 or Sikiflex 231, whatever is cheaper. I have had
acceptable (meaning I renew the bedding every five years or so) and
leak-free results with that, and it hard freezes here in January and
February, although covering the boat with a canvas tarp helps a lot.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:12:16 -0400, Dan wrote:

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?

Genoa track is troublesome, only because it's a lot of work to
properly seal the core with thickened epoxy. It's better, if messier,
in my opinion, to do the following:

Cut out from below all of the lower skin and balsa core. It's likely
sponge and rot, anyway. Save the lower skin.

Encapsulate marine grade plywood of the appropriate thickness.

When set up, carefully drill oversized bolt holes that correspond to
the (usually 1/4") genoa track holes on deck.

Epoxy these holes (3/8" - 1/2" is good). You should now have
essentially a waterproofed plank with waterproofed bolt holes.

Glass the wood (usually in several pieces to conform to the curve of
the topsides...YMMV) into place. Avoid leaving voids and be aware this
is a messy frickin' job.

Glass the lower skin back into place. The holes should line up...not
important if they don't.

Sand, grind or finish to your level of tolerance G.

Drill bolt holes through epoxied plugs in glassed in plywood.

Bed and bolt. Use backing plates (one per two or three bolts is easy
to shape and place. Bed the plates.

Even if you tear out the genoa track (unlikely as this part of the
deck is likely stronger than any other), you should be able to repair
the "core" easily.

Sound good?

My biggest problem was finding 1 1/4" T-track with 3" centers...they
don't make it anymore and I didn't want to do the entire track, just
butt a new piece into place and replace the core beneath.

R.

Dan,
You might check out Garhauer for your new hardware. I replaced my mainsheet
rig, including traveler and track and saved a BUNCH when compared to the
other brands.
MMC
"Dan" wrote in message
...
Thanks everyone. The core under this genoa track is plywood and apears
to be in good shape. The PO removed the track to paint the deck and
bent the track in half. When I straitened it, of course, it broke. so
I need new track. No big deal, just more $$$$
I have to re-core the deck as it is so when I get to the cap rail, if
it is soaked, I'll pull it off from the top also.
I have already over-drilled the holes for the cleates and the winches
and filled them with epoxy. I have drilled a starter hole with a
center drill to mark the spot, so to speak, and will finish drilling
after the deck is painted.
Thanks for the input,
Dan

I use 3M 4200 or Sikiflex 231, whatever is cheaper. I have had
acceptable (meaning I renew the bedding every five years or so) and
leak-free results with that, and it hard freezes here in January and
February, although covering the boat with a canvas tarp helps a lot.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:12:16 -0400, Dan wrote:

And what is recommended to bed with for deck hardware, specifically
winches, cleats and genoa track?

Genoa track is troublesome, only because it's a lot of work to
properly seal the core with thickened epoxy. It's better, if messier,
in my opinion, to do the following:

Cut out from below all of the lower skin and balsa core. It's likely
sponge and rot, anyway. Save the lower skin.

Encapsulate marine grade plywood of the appropriate thickness.

When set up, carefully drill oversized bolt holes that correspond to
the (usually 1/4") genoa track holes on deck.

Epoxy these holes (3/8" - 1/2" is good). You should now have
essentially a waterproofed plank with waterproofed bolt holes.

Glass the wood (usually in several pieces to conform to the curve of
the topsides...YMMV) into place. Avoid leaving voids and be aware this
is a messy frickin' job.

Glass the lower skin back into place. The holes should line up...not
important if they don't.

Sand, grind or finish to your level of tolerance G.

Drill bolt holes through epoxied plugs in glassed in plywood.

Bed and bolt. Use backing plates (one per two or three bolts is easy
to shape and place. Bed the plates.

Even if you tear out the genoa track (unlikely as this part of the
deck is likely stronger than any other), you should be able to repair
the "core" easily.

Sound good?

My biggest problem was finding 1 1/4" T-track with 3" centers...they
don't make it anymore and I didn't want to do the entire track, just
butt a new piece into place and replace the core beneath.

R.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:40:42 GMT, "MMC" wrote:

Dan,
You might check out Garhauer for your new hardware. I replaced my mainsheet
rig, including traveler and track and saved a BUNCH when compared to the
other brands.

I've heard good things about them as well, mainly through Practical
Sailor, who aren't really a cheer-leading squad for anybody G

R.