On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

I did quite a bit of sailing in a sportspal canoe as a teenager. The
factory sailing kit used a sea snark sail the mast mounted through the
front deck only about a foot from the bow. The leeboards attached to
the centre thwart and were made of 1"x6" about 3'long and were tapered
at the front. The rudder was a canoe paddle with an oarlock that set
into a hole at the end of the outboard motor mount. This set up would
point into the wind quite well and was reasonably fast. I had a lot of
fun with it and learned most of what I know about sailing in this boat
(wich isn't much )

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, Ron wrote:

[re-arranged text to appear in chronological order]
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?

I can't say from experience that a proper foil-shaped leeboard would make
a big difference, but from what I understand of aero- and hydrodynamic
theory, which may not be much, it could make a big difference under some
circumstances.

In order for a leeboard to function, it has to provide lift. It can only
provide lift if it has an angle of attack. Put another way, when the
boat experiences a force to leeward, there will always be a little bit
of slippage. If you consider the slippage, then it is clear that the water
is flowing over the leeboard at an angle. This angle is called the angle
of attack.

The aerodynamics of a flat-plate (which is what your leeboard is, AFAICS)
are OK as long as the angle of attack is very small (i.e., the boat
doesn't make much leeway), but they rapidly go to pot when there is a
large angle of attack. By "go to pot" I mean that the drag forces become
very large, which will keep you from making good headway.

I think it is a good idea to get the boat more or less balanced first,
then try playing with a foiled leeboard if you desire.

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

It sounds as though you are steering with a paddle as a rudder, which
should work fine once you get the boat more balanced. (I base this on
another poster's testimony, not on personal experience!)

Good luck!

--Mac

Mac ) writes:

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail
si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe
has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more
wouldn't hurt.

a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round
off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when
using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave the
middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street
signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or
daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe
60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast.

if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as
wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat or
lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral
resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped
right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more
leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight line.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Thanks for the info. The Hardboard siding leeboard is not holding up after
a trip to East Harbor (Ohio state park) The board is twisted and I really
had to work to get the boat moving forward into the wind at times. It
wanted to slip sideways or worse backwards untill I turned with the paddle.
once moving I did better.
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

Mac ) writes:

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like
the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you
can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail
si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe
has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more
wouldn't hurt.

a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round
off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when
using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave
the
middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street
signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or
daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe
60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast.

if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as
wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat
or
lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral
resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped
right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more
leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight
line.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what
you want to hear
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.

Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear.
I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.
I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.
It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.
I do appreciate all the advice. I kind of thought I was learning on this
trip so I might be able to ask better questions. But if you think I still
need to learn more, I'll tell my wife I need to go away again. She'll
probably would agree, in theory.

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what
you want to hear
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.