On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk (3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing' technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note, you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

One thing nice about marine varnish is that it can be stripped. Some of the
good coatings out there that would replace varnish are unstrippable plastics
....is this Nyalic stuff strippable? What's it like for repair later on?

Brian D


"scott downey" wrote in message
...
I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of
varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off
track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not
sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't
get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary
and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you
can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and
finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings
....much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be
okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just
waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on
traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks
great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test
the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

It does have a solvent and new coats melt into the old.


"Brian D" wrote in message
news:89K_c.135270$mD.91951@attbi_s02...

One thing nice about marine varnish is that it can be stripped. Some of
the
good coatings out there that would replace varnish are unstrippable
plastics
...is this Nyalic stuff strippable? What's it like for repair later on?

Brian D


"scott downey" wrote in message
...
I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of
varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is
expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off
track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not
sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not
be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish
each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good
adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing
....else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't
get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into
the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check
your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary
and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and
then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out
of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious
note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as
described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you
can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and
finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes
or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but
will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more
varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that,
you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings
...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
news On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below
the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be
okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out
of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just
waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but
I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on
traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and
new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy
to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks
great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if
it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow
and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the
epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not
sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty
well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test
the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

Ten years ago we used system 3 epoxy over stained mahagony on the stern
of a strip built boat. The system 3 person was dubious, more about the
stain than the mahogony. We coated the epoxy several coats of Zspar
varnish. The epoxy has remained clear and pristine since then. The
glas and epoxy elsewhere on the boat laid over sanded non-stained cedar
has lifted in spots, but the boat gets lots of flex and abuse in those
portions. As the hull is intact I sanded the areas flat and applied a
couple more coats of epoxy to the marred surface areas. The boat is in
the sun a lot and is rowed hard in races...great stuff this epoxy.

Jim Raney

scott downey wrote:

I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...


Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each


and


every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then


assembled


the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the


bottom


on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk


(3M


5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else


it


costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any


moisture


in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then


keep


it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'


technique


(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of


it,


then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a


good


coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,


you


can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of


varnish


for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will


get


you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish


on


each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you


can


expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats


require.


Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
news

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:



A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason


I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great


at


first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it


is


exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get


rapid


buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then


apply


a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure


how


this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well


for


interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care


about.


Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac