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#11
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:16:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:08:20 -0800 (PST), Bob La Londe wrote: On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? I wonder whether you are comparing designs that could be in one case simply a covering attached to a structural frame where the skin only keeps the water out while the structure provides the strength versus a design where the skin provides some of the total structure strength? Think of the original kayak design versus a stitch and glue dinghy with no internal frames for exaggerations of this concept. I remember reading that some of the British Steel 70-footers found dented plating around the bow after leaving the Southern Ocean. the answer was to add frames to the bow section for the next year's race, not increase the thickness of the plating. In other words the thickness of the plating was not considered a factor in the strength of the bow portions. The frames provided the strength while the plating kept the water out. Well, it seems except for S&G conversions most of the aluminum plans I have seen call for building a frame. Atleast in the 20 foot size range. Here is an example from the Glen-L design catalog. 230 Max HP. The Sea Ark in my previous post is rated at 225 so similar in stresses. http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/...snakeshtr.html SNAKE SHOOTER VEE between 17-1/2' and nearly 23' Plating 1/8" 250 sq. ft. 3/16" 200 sq. ft. 1/4" 40 sq. ft. 3/8" 10 sq. ft. Based on a once over that looks like 3/16 plating for the hull bottom and 1/8 for the sides to me. I have not looked at just one or two designs. I don't think you can tell from the materials list. The plywood boat for example uses 1/4" for the bottom planking and 3/8" for side planking. Looking at the aluminum list it appears that 1/8" is for bottom and 3/16" for side, which assumes that the two versions are at least similar in design. Given that Glenn-L makes a meal of saying that anyone that can weld can build one of these boats I would suggest that thickness of plating may well be selected from sizes that the designer expects that "everyone" can have some hope of welding successfully. Again assuming that the basic design is at least similar the aluminum thickness doesn't seem to relate to the plywood sizes given that aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of somewhere around 90 MPa while plywood is in the region of 30. If it were simply strength bottom aluminum plating would be in the region of 0.083, based on plywood strength. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) If they are using 1/4" ply for the bottom, it must be double layered. In plywood construction I would expect the bottom planking to always be heavier than the sides. That's where the heaviest stresses would be imposed. |
#12
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
"cavelamb" wrote in message
news Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:16:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:08:20 -0800 (PST), Bob La Londe wrote: On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? I wonder whether you are comparing designs that could be in one case simply a covering attached to a structural frame where the skin only keeps the water out while the structure provides the strength versus a design where the skin provides some of the total structure strength? Think of the original kayak design versus a stitch and glue dinghy with no internal frames for exaggerations of this concept. I remember reading that some of the British Steel 70-footers found dented plating around the bow after leaving the Southern Ocean. the answer was to add frames to the bow section for the next year's race, not increase the thickness of the plating. In other words the thickness of the plating was not considered a factor in the strength of the bow portions. The frames provided the strength while the plating kept the water out. Well, it seems except for S&G conversions most of the aluminum plans I have seen call for building a frame. Atleast in the 20 foot size range. Here is an example from the Glen-L design catalog. 230 Max HP. The Sea Ark in my previous post is rated at 225 so similar in stresses. http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/...snakeshtr.html SNAKE SHOOTER VEE between 17-1/2' and nearly 23' Plating 1/8" 250 sq. ft. 3/16" 200 sq. ft. 1/4" 40 sq. ft. 3/8" 10 sq. ft. Based on a once over that looks like 3/16 plating for the hull bottom and 1/8 for the sides to me. I have not looked at just one or two designs. I don't think you can tell from the materials list. The plywood boat for example uses 1/4" for the bottom planking and 3/8" for side planking. Looking at the aluminum list it appears that 1/8" is for bottom and 3/16" for side, which assumes that the two versions are at least similar in design. Given that Glenn-L makes a meal of saying that anyone that can weld can build one of these boats I would suggest that thickness of plating may well be selected from sizes that the designer expects that "everyone" can have some hope of welding successfully. Again assuming that the basic design is at least similar the aluminum thickness doesn't seem to relate to the plywood sizes given that aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of somewhere around 90 MPa while plywood is in the region of 30. If it were simply strength bottom aluminum plating would be in the region of 0.083, based on plywood strength. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) If they are using 1/4" ply for the bottom, it must be double layered. In plywood construction I would expect the bottom planking to always be heavier than the sides. That's where the heaviest stresses would be imposed. I have found similar over design criteria in Pollards book on aluminum boat building as well. That was just one example. Anyway, it looks like most of the purchased designs want you to over build. As to selecting a thickness based on ease of weld I can understand that. Although why use any 3/8 then? 1/8 is easy with a little care. 3/16 and 1/4 are ok too. when you get up to 3/8 it can be a real trick for an amateur welder. Especially when tying it into thinner sheets. It has its own problems just like welding really thin stuff. Now for a new thread on a technique that will no doubt raise tons of controversy. |
#14
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
In article , Bob La Londe wrote:
On Nov 29, 6:28*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. *.125 is considered heavy duty. *Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? Could it be something to do with the ability of a professional to make a good weld in that thickness, where an amateur might just be left with a big hole? Maybe the plans are expected to be completed by self-builders without the skill of the pro, and a margin for error is built in. Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
#15
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:03:59 -0600, cavelamb
wrote: Bruce In Bangkok wrote: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 18:16:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:08:20 -0800 (PST), Bob La Londe wrote: On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? I wonder whether you are comparing designs that could be in one case simply a covering attached to a structural frame where the skin only keeps the water out while the structure provides the strength versus a design where the skin provides some of the total structure strength? Think of the original kayak design versus a stitch and glue dinghy with no internal frames for exaggerations of this concept. I remember reading that some of the British Steel 70-footers found dented plating around the bow after leaving the Southern Ocean. the answer was to add frames to the bow section for the next year's race, not increase the thickness of the plating. In other words the thickness of the plating was not considered a factor in the strength of the bow portions. The frames provided the strength while the plating kept the water out. Well, it seems except for S&G conversions most of the aluminum plans I have seen call for building a frame. Atleast in the 20 foot size range. Here is an example from the Glen-L design catalog. 230 Max HP. The Sea Ark in my previous post is rated at 225 so similar in stresses. http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/...snakeshtr.html SNAKE SHOOTER VEE between 17-1/2' and nearly 23' Plating 1/8" 250 sq. ft. 3/16" 200 sq. ft. 1/4" 40 sq. ft. 3/8" 10 sq. ft. Based on a once over that looks like 3/16 plating for the hull bottom and 1/8 for the sides to me. I have not looked at just one or two designs. I don't think you can tell from the materials list. The plywood boat for example uses 1/4" for the bottom planking and 3/8" for side planking. Looking at the aluminum list it appears that 1/8" is for bottom and 3/16" for side, which assumes that the two versions are at least similar in design. Given that Glenn-L makes a meal of saying that anyone that can weld can build one of these boats I would suggest that thickness of plating may well be selected from sizes that the designer expects that "everyone" can have some hope of welding successfully. Again assuming that the basic design is at least similar the aluminum thickness doesn't seem to relate to the plywood sizes given that aluminum has an ultimate tensile strength of somewhere around 90 MPa while plywood is in the region of 30. If it were simply strength bottom aluminum plating would be in the region of 0.083, based on plywood strength. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) If they are using 1/4" ply for the bottom, it must be double layered. In plywood construction I would expect the bottom planking to always be heavier than the sides. That's where the heaviest stresses would be imposed. I'm going only by the materials list that Glenn-L supplies which doesn't go into detail and simply says something like Plywood, 1/4", X sheets,bottom planking. However... The aluminum version doesn't not specify what the various thickness' they list are used for and there is a noticeable difference in quantities of say, 1/8th sheet and 1/4" plywood, so I doubt that it is a case of apples and oranges. There are no construction drawings and the photographs are mainly included to show you what a beautiful boat you can build so details aren't detailed enough to make a reasonable assessment of how the boat is built, other then a general idea of the frames and stringers. But you are correct and normally the bottom is stronger. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#16
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:03:00 +0000, Justin C
wrote: In article , Bob La Londe wrote: On Nov 29, 6:28*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. *.125 is considered heavy duty. *Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? Could it be something to do with the ability of a professional to make a good weld in that thickness, where an amateur might just be left with a big hole? Maybe the plans are expected to be completed by self-builders without the skill of the pro, and a margin for error is built in. Justin. I don't think it is the welding as much as the warping. If you assume at least minimal skills and reasonably suitable equipment a welder should be able to weld thinner then 1/8". Perhaps not with stick but using TIG it is not a difficult feat. The difference, I believe, is the warping. Thin Aluminum would be all over the place as soon as you struck an arc and without a really fancy set of jigs and fixtures I doubt that anyone could get it flat. My own thoughts are that the thinner thickness' are specified at thickness that you might get away with without extensive fixtures. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#17
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:03:00 +0000, Justin C wrote: In article , Bob La Londe wrote: On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? Could it be something to do with the ability of a professional to make a good weld in that thickness, where an amateur might just be left with a big hole? Maybe the plans are expected to be completed by self-builders without the skill of the pro, and a margin for error is built in. That is a good point. I'm not a great aluminum welder and thin aluminum is a trick for me. The thinnest I have done with a MIG welder is about .043, and the thinnest I have been able to do a fair job on is about .075. Justin. I don't think it is the welding as much as the warping. If you assume at least minimal skills and reasonably suitable equipment a welder should be able to weld thinner then 1/8". Perhaps not with stick but using TIG it is not a difficult feat. The difference, I believe, is the warping. Thin Aluminum would be all over the place as soon as you struck an arc and without a really fancy set of jigs and fixtures I doubt that anyone could get it flat. My own thoughts are that the thinner thickness' are specified at thickness that you might get away with without extensive fixtures. 1/8" is actually pretty easy. Fixturing is certainly the way to go. Warping is certainly a big issue, which in part led me to the idea for the other thread I started. |
#18
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
"I am Tosk" wrote in message
... In article 4c685479-5e3d-489a-87e5- , says... On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? I think the latter is the answer. I have seen a lot of large manufacturers with design and limit stickers that small home builders would never get away with. Look at the HP ratings for inflatables for starters. They can put a frekin' 40 horse on a boat and a wooden one the same size and shape will only hold a 3-5?? Yeah, but some designers go the other way to. Lots of designs by glen-l and bateau are rated by them much lower than if you plug in the USCG formulas from their backyard boat builder pamphlet for the craft in question. P.S. I have visited your site before and found a very informative. |
#19
posted to rec.boats.building
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Aluminum Hulls
In article , says...
"I am Tosk" wrote in message ... In article 4c685479-5e3d-489a-87e5- , says... On Nov 29, 6:28 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: I find it interesting that a lot of the small boat aluminum designs seem to say the main hull should be 3/16 and yet .100 is used in a heck of a lot of commercially available small boats. .125 is considered heavy duty. Is it just CYA? Anyway, getting back to my original point. A lot of commercially available boats seem to be made out of a lot light sheet than the designers are reccomending in the boat plans they are selling. http://www.seaarkboats.com/boat.php?...&boat=Big+Easy For example: The link above is to a medium V design 24 footer. The specs says .125 thick sheet. I can't buy a plan to build a boat that size designed for .125 sheet. Most of the ones I have seen want to spec .1875 which basically means .190. Now why is that? Is it just the typical over building to cover your dearie aere, or are all those commercial boat builders building inadequate boats and damn the liability? I think the latter is the answer. I have seen a lot of large manufacturers with design and limit stickers that small home builders would never get away with. Look at the HP ratings for inflatables for starters. They can put a frekin' 40 horse on a boat and a wooden one the same size and shape will only hold a 3-5?? Yeah, but some designers go the other way to. Lots of designs by glen-l and bateau are rated by them much lower than if you plug in the USCG formulas from their backyard boat builder pamphlet for the craft in question. P.S. I have visited your site before and found a very informative. Thanks. It's been a while since I left the shop to move north and take care of Dad. In case anyone wondered where the heck I went Scotty. I do plan on returning to the shop someday if I can... |
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