On Jan 6, 9:02*am, "My news" wrote:
It will be cheaper for them if they can eliminate the dugout canoe and will
save them time to build the boat. I asked some boat makers in the south of
manila that their waiting time for the dugout canoe is about four to five
months. The price is not cheap for a very crude work that they still have to
finish. It is the most expensive part of the boat and mostly came from
illegal cutting.
You can see from the link I provided earlier that the price of the boat can
go up to 3000 dollars which is not affordable for many native filipinos.

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in messagenews:sni6m4hsfkv46s0of2ivkei9ec6hpspr9f@4ax .com...



On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:55:17 -0800, "mscres" wrote:

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:55:34 -0800, "My news" wrote:

Any advise or comment if I will use polyester and fiber glass on top of
cured and sanded epoxy on stich and glue? My plan is to prime the entire
hull with epoxy for a good bind before the application of
fiberglass/polyester skin.

I want to introduce this idea to the poor fishermen in the Philippines
for
economic reason.

Polyester does not bond very well to epoxy. Most authorities advise
not to use this method.

The "old" system was to use thin polyester resin to impregnate the
wood. Then use polyester resin to "glue" it together. Many boats were
built this way in the early days of "fiberglass" construction.

I think I'd question your idea. Why not just use waterproof plywood to
build boats? It has been done successfully for years now and I would
guess that the Filipinos are well aware of how to build boats.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

They are still using the old practice of cutting trees to make a dug out
canoe for the bottom hull with extented sides made of plywood. The dug out
canoes are being sold to the local fishermen by those illegal tree
cutters.
I like to introduce the stick and glue to eliminate the dug out canoe
which
will be cheaper for them and will save the trees. This is the native Banca
using outriggers on both sides.

http://www.pixelmap.ca/canoesailing/

Will it really be cheaper? I ask as in Thailand a bunch of guys came
over to show the natives how to build boats and the fishermen didn't
buy it. The local built boats were cheaper and longer lasting.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you ever wonder why those boat makers are still waiting for those
dugouts?

they have a ton of programs to teach them modern boat building and
they dont use them.

the natives dont like the stich and glue boats. the boats dont behave
the way those dugouts behave and they look funny. all that framing
inside getting in the way.

have you spoken to the poor and found what they want in a boat?
my guess is that they will still not be able to afford your stich and
glue monstrosity mostly because they cant take a chance on if it will
work or not.

dont spend time talking to those with cash that wont actually use the
boat talk to the folks who will be depending on the boat to not
starve. the you will get some answers as to why those boat builders
are sitting around drinking wine and waiting for the illeagle logs to
be cut.

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:02:43 -0800, "My news" wrote:

It will be cheaper for them if they can eliminate the dugout canoe and will
save them time to build the boat. I asked some boat makers in the south of
manila that their waiting time for the dugout canoe is about four to five
months. The price is not cheap for a very crude work that they still have to
finish. It is the most expensive part of the boat and mostly came from
illegal cutting.
You can see from the link I provided earlier that the price of the boat can
go up to 3000 dollars which is not affordable for many native filipinos.

You seem to be implying that the poor benighted fishermen don't really
know much about boats and you are going to teach the ignorant people a
new and better way. Sort of a missionary saving the pagans idea, which
is often a trait of people who really don't have a great deal of
experience in the subject, or area.

My experience, based on asking questions, not on attempting to convert
anyone, is that in most areas the local watermen do in fact have a
fairly good idea of what type of boat is most suitable to their
particular type of work.

For example: In Thailand 99.9 percent of all fishing boats are built
of wood. Big fishing boats - 80 footers or bigger. Recently, while I
was in the yard an 80 footer was right behind me and I asked the owner
why not build with steel. He replied that of course steel was cheaper
but a few years ago some boats were built from steel and the boats had
a lot of problems that the wooden boats didn't have so the owners
generally didn't want steel.

My point isn't that steel is better or worse then wood, rather that
local watermen usually do know what boats fit their purpose.

Given that the Filipinos are a pretty innovative people and have a
world of experience working in foreign countries, adapting foreign
ideas - see jeepney, for example - etc. It seems unlikely that glued
plywood is going to be a real surprise to them.

Re the dugout style boats you mention, I can think of at least one
reason to build them that way - they will be more stable and have a
much easier motion when fishing that a lighter plywood boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:02:43 -0800, "My news" wrote:

It will be cheaper for them if they can eliminate the dugout canoe and
will
save them time to build the boat. I asked some boat makers in the south of
manila that their waiting time for the dugout canoe is about four to five
months. The price is not cheap for a very crude work that they still have
to
finish. It is the most expensive part of the boat and mostly came from
illegal cutting.
You can see from the link I provided earlier that the price of the boat
can
go up to 3000 dollars which is not affordable for many native filipinos.

You seem to be implying that the poor benighted fishermen don't really
know much about boats and you are going to teach the ignorant people a
new and better way. Sort of a missionary saving the pagans idea, which
is often a trait of people who really don't have a great deal of
experience in the subject, or area.

My experience, based on asking questions, not on attempting to convert
anyone, is that in most areas the local watermen do in fact have a
fairly good idea of what type of boat is most suitable to their
particular type of work.

For example: In Thailand 99.9 percent of all fishing boats are built
of wood. Big fishing boats - 80 footers or bigger. Recently, while I
was in the yard an 80 footer was right behind me and I asked the owner
why not build with steel. He replied that of course steel was cheaper
but a few years ago some boats were built from steel and the boats had
a lot of problems that the wooden boats didn't have so the owners
generally didn't want steel.

My point isn't that steel is better or worse then wood, rather that
local watermen usually do know what boats fit their purpose.

Given that the Filipinos are a pretty innovative people and have a
world of experience working in foreign countries, adapting foreign
ideas - see jeepney, for example - etc. It seems unlikely that glued
plywood is going to be a real surprise to them.

Re the dugout style boats you mention, I can think of at least one
reason to build them that way - they will be more stable and have a
much easier motion when fishing that a lighter plywood boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I'm very aware that many people are reluctant to make a big change to the
things that they are accustomed for generations. My only intention is to
show that there is an option for them to use in replace of the bottom hull.
They will still build a basic Banca but less expensive and faster to make.
My plan is to fabricate a similar type of the dugout canoe from stich and
glue and ask one of the natives to build a Banca from it. I believe this
approach will be acceptable because the real intention is the affordability
for others. I estimate that the cost can be cut to approximately 30% less
due to elimination the laborous dugout canoe and the island to island
transport. Imagine that some guys will go to the mountain, find the right
tree with the right size, cut it down and dug it out for a crudely made
canoe in manual labor and finally deliver it to another island. The plywood
is available everywhere in the Philippines but the available composites are
fibergalss and polyester. The only available epoxy is the thick, grey
generic type.

What was the old quote?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

?

"My news" wrote in message
...

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:02:43 -0800, "My news" wrote:

It will be cheaper for them if they can eliminate the dugout canoe and
will
save them time to build the boat. I asked some boat makers in the south
of
manila that their waiting time for the dugout canoe is about four to five
months. The price is not cheap for a very crude work that they still have
to
finish. It is the most expensive part of the boat and mostly came from
illegal cutting.
You can see from the link I provided earlier that the price of the boat
can
go up to 3000 dollars which is not affordable for many native filipinos.

You seem to be implying that the poor benighted fishermen don't really
know much about boats and you are going to teach the ignorant people a
new and better way. Sort of a missionary saving the pagans idea, which
is often a trait of people who really don't have a great deal of
experience in the subject, or area.

My experience, based on asking questions, not on attempting to convert
anyone, is that in most areas the local watermen do in fact have a
fairly good idea of what type of boat is most suitable to their
particular type of work.

For example: In Thailand 99.9 percent of all fishing boats are built
of wood. Big fishing boats - 80 footers or bigger. Recently, while I
was in the yard an 80 footer was right behind me and I asked the owner
why not build with steel. He replied that of course steel was cheaper
but a few years ago some boats were built from steel and the boats had
a lot of problems that the wooden boats didn't have so the owners
generally didn't want steel.

My point isn't that steel is better or worse then wood, rather that
local watermen usually do know what boats fit their purpose.

Given that the Filipinos are a pretty innovative people and have a
world of experience working in foreign countries, adapting foreign
ideas - see jeepney, for example - etc. It seems unlikely that glued
plywood is going to be a real surprise to them.

Re the dugout style boats you mention, I can think of at least one
reason to build them that way - they will be more stable and have a
much easier motion when fishing that a lighter plywood boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I'm very aware that many people are reluctant to make a big change to the
things that they are accustomed for generations. My only intention is to
show that there is an option for them to use in replace of the bottom
hull. They will still build a basic Banca but less expensive and faster to
make. My plan is to fabricate a similar type of the dugout canoe from
stich and glue and ask one of the natives to build a Banca from it. I
believe this approach will be acceptable because the real intention is the
affordability for others. I estimate that the cost can be cut to
approximately 30% less due to elimination the laborous dugout canoe and
the island to island transport. Imagine that some guys will go to the
mountain, find the right tree with the right size, cut it down and dug it
out for a crudely made canoe in manual labor and finally deliver it to
another island. The plywood is available everywhere in the Philippines but
the available composites are fibergalss and polyester. The only available
epoxy is the thick, grey generic type.

BTW, The easy motion and stability of the Banca basically relies from it's
length. The common size for a small fisherman ranges from 28 to 32 foot
long. This is based from most local fishermen I spoke with. The 32 footers
are more dependable in the open. They are lightweight indeed. The sides are
made of quarter inch plywood. The dugout canoe is three quarter inch thick
and an inch on the bottom. They will like it if the boat will be made even
lighter because they carry Gill nets with plenty of sinks. They can use
extra capacity to carry more nets that will result to higher yield. In
addition, The haul can be made even wider for more buoyancy if stitch and
glue is used.

On Jan 6, 8:58*pm, cavelamb wrote:
What was the old quote?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

?

"I belive the road to hell is actually paved with frozen door to door
salesmen. young demons ice skate down it on nice days" Terry pratchet,
good omens

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:33:16 -0800, "My news" wrote:


"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:02:43 -0800, "My news" wrote:

It will be cheaper for them if they can eliminate the dugout canoe and
will
save them time to build the boat. I asked some boat makers in the south of
manila that their waiting time for the dugout canoe is about four to five
months. The price is not cheap for a very crude work that they still have
to
finish. It is the most expensive part of the boat and mostly came from
illegal cutting.
You can see from the link I provided earlier that the price of the boat
can
go up to 3000 dollars which is not affordable for many native filipinos.

You seem to be implying that the poor benighted fishermen don't really
know much about boats and you are going to teach the ignorant people a
new and better way. Sort of a missionary saving the pagans idea, which
is often a trait of people who really don't have a great deal of
experience in the subject, or area.

My experience, based on asking questions, not on attempting to convert
anyone, is that in most areas the local watermen do in fact have a
fairly good idea of what type of boat is most suitable to their
particular type of work.

For example: In Thailand 99.9 percent of all fishing boats are built
of wood. Big fishing boats - 80 footers or bigger. Recently, while I
was in the yard an 80 footer was right behind me and I asked the owner
why not build with steel. He replied that of course steel was cheaper
but a few years ago some boats were built from steel and the boats had
a lot of problems that the wooden boats didn't have so the owners
generally didn't want steel.

My point isn't that steel is better or worse then wood, rather that
local watermen usually do know what boats fit their purpose.

Given that the Filipinos are a pretty innovative people and have a
world of experience working in foreign countries, adapting foreign
ideas - see jeepney, for example - etc. It seems unlikely that glued
plywood is going to be a real surprise to them.

Re the dugout style boats you mention, I can think of at least one
reason to build them that way - they will be more stable and have a
much easier motion when fishing that a lighter plywood boat.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I'm very aware that many people are reluctant to make a big change to the
things that they are accustomed for generations. My only intention is to
show that there is an option for them to use in replace of the bottom hull.
They will still build a basic Banca but less expensive and faster to make.
My plan is to fabricate a similar type of the dugout canoe from stich and
glue and ask one of the natives to build a Banca from it. I believe this
approach will be acceptable because the real intention is the affordability
for others. I estimate that the cost can be cut to approximately 30% less
due to elimination the laborous dugout canoe and the island to island
transport. Imagine that some guys will go to the mountain, find the right
tree with the right size, cut it down and dug it out for a crudely made
canoe in manual labor and finally deliver it to another island. The plywood
is available everywhere in the Philippines but the available composites are
fibergalss and polyester. The only available epoxy is the thick, grey
generic type.

I'm not trying to get you to abandon your plan, I'm just saying that
the local lads aren't as clueless as they may seem. Over the years I
have questioned a lot of things that seemed, from a Western viewpoint
to be rational, and gotten perfectly logical answers why they aren't
acceptable to the users.

Another example: Why do Thai fishermen use "long tailed" motors? I
asked a couple of fishermen - "why not outboards". the answer was,
"because the long Tails cost less, last longer, use less fuel and
work".
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

The plywood
is available everywhere in the Philippines but the available composites are
fibergalss and polyester. The only available epoxy is the thick, grey
generic type.


Then in that case you aren't stitch and gluing anything. You have no
glue.
Maybe the locals know that.

Pirateer guy wrote:

The plywood
is available everywhere in the Philippines but the available composites
are fibergalss and polyester. The only available epoxy is the thick, grey
generic type.


Then in that case you aren't stitch and gluing anything. You have no
glue. Maybe the locals know that.

Don't be too harsh! Boats have been stitched together long before anyone had
epoxy. It might be quite possible to get structural strength from the
stitches, and cover up with something (poly+glass) only to keep it
watertight.

-H

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:11:12 +0100, Heikki wrote:

Pirateer guy wrote:

The plywood
is available everywhere in the Philippines but the available composites
are fibergalss and polyester. The only available epoxy is the thick, grey
generic type.


Then in that case you aren't stitch and gluing anything. You have no
glue. Maybe the locals know that.

Don't be too harsh! Boats have been stitched together long before anyone had
epoxy. It might be quite possible to get structural strength from the
stitches, and cover up with something (poly+glass) only to keep it
watertight.

-H

True, but as soon as nails became available they stopped tying their
boats together....Stitching certainly works - when there is no other
solution.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)