Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:06:33 -0400, jeff wrote:

Perhaps true, but we do have evidence of drowning on a Mac that rolled
over. Does the fact the the boat didn't sink make you feel better?

Was it dismasted in the rollover? Why did the rollover occur ?

It was on July 4th, about 6 years ago. Calm night, a large crowd
watching fireworks. The Mac had been borrowed by a brother-in-law, who
had only used it a few times. There were 8 adults on deck, some
standing forward, and three small kids below. The cause of the rollover
is unclear, but I assume after weighing anchor the skipper goosed the
throttle with the helm over, and the boat lurched. It was probably
pulled over by someone hanging onto the shrouds. Two of the kids below
drowned.

There was a big trial, experts for both sides. I think USSailing
actually sent witnesses against Mac. In the end Mac avoided paying
damages because the skipper was drunk. Of course, everyone else out
there (and half the boaters across the country) was drunk that night,
but only these two kids died. I always thought that incident was the
reason why Mac added some ballast in the new design.

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote:

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

=========================================

Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a
similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge
cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over
and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning
sticker.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote:

JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

=========================================

Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a
similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge
cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over
and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning
sticker.

Problem solved with a warning sticker!!! That is just the builder covering
his backside as best he can.
The builders of the capsized Mac said they put a sticker on when it was
built but the evidence indicated that it was not there at the time of the
accident.
Eight adults on the deck of what was in effect a large unballasted dinghy is
a recipe for disaster because it constitutes overloading anyway and the
weight of all on deck was so high up that if the boat heels even in a gentle
turn it is going right over if there is no ballast in the keel to restrain
it..
There is no mystery at all about the cause of the tragedy but it does
indicate that this is not a boat that anyone without training about the
water ballast and the max no of passengers can just drive away safely

Edgar wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:09:26 -0400, jeff wrote:


JimC would like to write this off as just a drunk operator incident, but
frankly, it happened so quickly and was so unexpected, that it might
have happened even if he was sober. My issue is that 8 adults is not
normally gross overloading on a 26 foot boat, and goosing the throttle
on a typical sailboat does not instantly create a dangerous situation.
Given that Macs are often sold to novices, the description of this event
should be required reading by all Mac owners.

http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

=========================================

Tragic, too many people plus a design weakness. Bayliner had a
similar issue back in the 80s with some of their small flybridge
cruisers. With too much weight on the flybridge they would flop over
and capsize in a hard turn. Problem was solved with a warning
sticker.


Problem solved with a warning sticker!!! That is just the builder covering
his backside as best he can.
The builders of the capsized Mac said they put a sticker on when it was
built but the evidence indicated that it was not there at the time of the
accident.
Eight adults on the deck of what was in effect a large unballasted dinghy is
a recipe for disaster because it constitutes overloading anyway and the
weight of all on deck was so high up that if the boat heels even in a gentle
turn it is going right over if there is no ballast in the keel to restrain
it..
There is no mystery at all about the cause of the tragedy but it does
indicate that this is not a boat that anyone without training about the
water ballast and the max no of passengers can just drive away safely


The skipper was drunk, the boat was severely overloaded and top heavy,
the skipper had borrowed the boat from the owner and was apparently
unfamiliar with it, and the owner was apparently not there to check
things out. Most critically, the drunk skipper was motoring the boat
with the ballast tank empty. Therefore, once the boat started to roll
(apparently when he turned, under power, with the heavy load on deck),
the boat had little righting force and rolled over. ANYONE WHO HAS
SAILED OR MOTORED a water-ballasted boat should know that such boats
aren't self-righting without the water ballast and are dangerous,
particularly if you are going out with the boat overloaded and while you
and several of the guests are drunk. Also, the two casualties were small
infants who had been left in the cabin while the "adults" were drinking
up on deck. I also think the owner had a responsibility to check the
boat (and the skipper) before the boat went out.

In any event, the case was vigorously prosecuted, but the plaintiffs
lost. They tried to make the case that the boat was inherently unsafe,
but the judge didn't buy it. As to how this relates to our present
discussion, I really doubt than any even half-way rational skipper would
consider taking a Mac offshore under such conditions (with the boat
overloaded, with several adults standing on the deck, with the skipper
and half the guests drunk, and with the ballast tank empty). It's an
anomaly that doesn't really relate to the present discussion.

Jim

"JimC" wrote in message
...
I really doubt than any even half-way rational skipper would
consider taking a Mac offshore under such conditions (with the boat
overloaded, with several adults standing on the deck, with the skipper and
half the guests drunk, and with the ballast tank empty). It's an anomaly
that doesn't really relate to the present discussion.


Such conditions? Calm waters?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
I really doubt than any even half-way rational skipper would

consider taking a Mac offshore under such conditions (with the boat
overloaded, with several adults standing on the deck, with the skipper and
half the guests drunk, and with the ballast tank empty). It's an anomaly
that doesn't really relate to the present discussion.



Such conditions? Calm waters?

You are again evading the substance of my post, Ganz. "Calm waters" was
only one factor out of a number of more critical ones, including: drunk
skipper, negligent owner, drunk guests, ignorant skipper who wasn't
familiar with the boat, empty ballast tank (apparently not checked by
either the skipper or the owner), motoring at night under varying
lighting (fireworks) boat overloaded, boat top heavy with several drunk
adults standing on the deck, some apparently holding on to the mast, and
infants left in the cabin. Regarding the "calm waters" issue,
apparently the skipper was trying to maneuver around other boats also in
the area to watch the fireworks. In any event, he turned the boat at
excessive speed under the conditions.

Ganz, are you intentionally or maliciously distorting the points made in
my notes, or are you just stupid?

Jim

JimC wrote:

Ganz, are you intentionally or maliciously distorting the points made in
my notes, or are you just stupid?

Jim


Hold up, Jim.

You seem to be expecting rational behavior and fair treatment from the
creatures inhabiting this list.

They, on the other hand, are having fun making sport of you via your boat.

Drop it and go on and enjoy sailing.

Maybe the first cartoon here will help...
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm


Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

"JimC" wrote in message
.. .


Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
I really doubt than any even half-way rational skipper would

consider taking a Mac offshore under such conditions (with the boat
overloaded, with several adults standing on the deck, with the skipper
and half the guests drunk, and with the ballast tank empty). It's an
anomaly that doesn't really relate to the present discussion.



Such conditions? Calm waters?

You are again evading the substance of my post, Ganz. "Calm waters" was
only one factor out of a number of more critical ones, including: drunk
skipper, negligent owner, drunk guests, ignorant skipper who wasn't
familiar with the boat, empty ballast tank (apparently not checked by
either the skipper or the owner), motoring at night under varying lighting
(fireworks) boat overloaded, boat top heavy with several drunk adults
standing on the deck, some apparently holding on to the mast, and infants
left in the cabin. Regarding the "calm waters" issue, apparently the
skipper was trying to maneuver around other boats also in the area to
watch the fireworks. In any event, he turned the boat at excessive speed
under the conditions.

Ganz, are you intentionally or maliciously distorting the points made in
my notes, or are you just stupid?

Jim


I must be stupid to believe you take yourself so seriously. You're the best
troll ever!!


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com