"JimC" wrote in message
...


Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:01:00 -0600, JimC
wrote:


You also say that the Macs will simply "break up" in heavy seas. Again,
where is your evidence, other than anecdotes and hearsay, supporting this
assertion?


His assertion is based on common sense, and the fact that the boat is
not designed or built for off-shore conditions. Where is your
evidence that the boat will not break up in heavy seas?

I haven't heard of any ongoing problem with Macs breaking apart and
sinking in heavy seas. - Have you?

Fortunately, most people, even those who buy Macs, don't take them out
there. But, feel free and send us a report!

It's not impossible, plenty of other boats have met that fate. Pick one
up 30
feet into the air and drop it to the water a few times. That will
give you a good idea where the weak spots are.

I suppose that if someone had some evidence that Macs subjected to heavy
seas and/or severe stress have been breaking apart and sinking I might
reconsider my opinion. Meanwhile, it seems that neither you or the Capt.
have any evidence to back up your assertions. I do agree that "it's not
impossible." - I'm just not sure how I'm going to pick it up 30 feet in
the air and drop it into the water several times.

That's quite a consession. Would you concede that if we drop it off a
10-story apartment building it might "break up"?

Careful how you answer....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...


Wayne.B wrote:


On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:01:00 -0600, JimC
wrote:



You also say that the Macs will simply "break up" in heavy seas. Again,
where is your evidence, other than anecdotes and hearsay, supporting this
assertion?


His assertion is based on common sense, and the fact that the boat is
not designed or built for off-shore conditions. Where is your
evidence that the boat will not break up in heavy seas?

I haven't heard of any ongoing problem with Macs breaking apart and
sinking in heavy seas. - Have you?


Fortunately, most people, even those who buy Macs, don't take them out
there. But, feel free and send us a report!


It's not impossible, plenty of other boats have met that fate. Pick one
up 30

feet into the air and drop it to the water a few times. That will
give you a good idea where the weak spots are.

I suppose that if someone had some evidence that Macs subjected to heavy
seas and/or severe stress have been breaking apart and sinking I might
reconsider my opinion. Meanwhile, it seems that neither you or the Capt.
have any evidence to back up your assertions. I do agree that "it's not
impossible." - I'm just not sure how I'm going to pick it up 30 feet in
the air and drop it into the water several times.


That's quite a consession. Would you concede that if we drop it off a
10-story apartment building it might "break up"?

Careful how you answer....


OK.- Being very, very careful .... I suspect that if the Mac were
dropped off a 10-story building, it might suffer severe structural
damage. Once again, however, I don't know how I would manage the
logistics of such an experiment.

To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm, there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments
regarding the Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

Jim

"JimC" wrote in message
.. .
That's quite a consession. Would you concede that if we drop it off a
10-story apartment building it might "break up"?

Careful how you answer....


OK.- Being very, very careful .... I suspect that if the Mac were dropped
off a 10-story building, it might suffer severe structural damage. Once
again, however, I don't know how I would manage the logistics of such an
experiment.

Try going out in a storm. Water isn't so soft as you think, and when your
nice little Mac goes flying off the top of 30 foot wave, then gets pounded
by another one, and another, and another, you'll know the answer.


To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and sarcasm,
there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments regarding the
Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

You're right. It just takes common sense. The Mac is a great boat for
protected waters and light winds with small waves. Any place else, and you
can't blame the boat for the consequences.




--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:01:19 GMT, wrote:

Try going out in a storm. Water isn't so soft as you think, and when your
nice little Mac goes flying off the top of 30 foot wave, then gets pounded
by another one, and another, and another, you'll know the answer.

I don't think I've ever seen one under sail, always motoring along
with the skipper perched up in the air on that funny little helm seat.
Given the big outboards they are typically powered with and the
limited fuel range that implies, it seems doubtful they could make it
very far offshore. Somewhere on the internet is a video of a Hobie 33
surviving a 30 ft drop test into the water. Perhaps our friend would
be willing to volunteer his Mac for similar testing.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:51:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"JimC" wrote in message
...
That's quite a consession. Would you concede that if we drop it off a
10-story apartment building it might "break up"?

Careful how you answer....


OK.- Being very, very careful .... I suspect that if the Mac were
dropped
off a 10-story building, it might suffer severe structural damage. Once
again, however, I don't know how I would manage the logistics of such an
experiment.

Try going out in a storm. Water isn't so soft as you think, and when your
nice little Mac goes flying off the top of 30 foot wave, then gets pounded
by another one, and another, and another, you'll know the answer.


To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm,
there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments regarding
the
Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

You're right. It just takes common sense. The Mac is a great boat for
protected waters and light winds with small waves. Any place else, and you
can't blame the boat for the consequences.

Yeah, blame the sales brochure!




I was blaming the salesman with the slicked back hair.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

JimC wrote:


To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm, there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments
regarding the Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

If I use your methodology, since no one has directly disproved the
ability of Mac26 to be a perfectly survivable and utile manned orbital
vehicle, one would be remiss to suggest that to try this would be folly.

Cheers
Marty

JimC wrote:
To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm, there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments
regarding the Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

You're just like the little old lady who has 47 cats... anybody who
thinks it's not great just plain HATES KITTYS, and must therefor be a
barbarian.

I've had cats, and still prefer dogs. I've sailed a Mac 26X, sailed in
company with the 26M (which despite all ad copy, and your
protestation, is pretty much the same boat)... and they don't sail
very well, period.

BTW I've also sailed the older Mac 26 which was a much better sailing
boat, and a number of the yet-older Ventures.


Martin Baxter wrote:
If I use your methodology, since no one has directly disproved the
ability of Mac26 to be a perfectly survivable and utile manned orbital
vehicle, one would be remiss to suggest that to try this would be folly.


Obviously you have no knowledge or experience with the heat-shielding
properties of un cored fiberglass, with a high proportion of chopper
gun. The Mac 26X (or the MUCH BETTER 26M) would be far better as a
reentry vehicle than most conventional sailboats.

DSK

wrote in message
...
JimC wrote:
To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that,
other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm, there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments
regarding the Mac26M. - As I initially noted.

You're just like the little old lady who has 47 cats... anybody who
thinks it's not great just plain HATES KITTYS, and must therefor be a
barbarian.

I've had cats, and still prefer dogs. I've sailed a Mac 26X, sailed in
company with the 26M (which despite all ad copy, and your
protestation, is pretty much the same boat)... and they don't sail
very well, period.

BTW I've also sailed the older Mac 26 which was a much better sailing
boat, and a number of the yet-older Ventures.


Martin Baxter wrote:
If I use your methodology, since no one has directly disproved the
ability of Mac26 to be a perfectly survivable and utile manned orbital
vehicle, one would be remiss to suggest that to try this would be folly.


Obviously you have no knowledge or experience with the heat-shielding
properties of un cored fiberglass, with a high proportion of chopper
gun. The Mac 26X (or the MUCH BETTER 26M) would be far better as a
reentry vehicle than most conventional sailboats.

DSK



Not after I hack it up with a chainsaw... LOL

I have a friend who has one of the older Macs. He reinforced a lot of stuff
and sails in the bay. Does fine... knowing the limitations of his boat.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote:
I have a friend who has one of the older Macs. He reinforced a lot of stuff
and sails in the bay. Does fine... knowing the limitations of his boat.


Well, the limits of the boat are still beyond the limits of the
sailor, in most cases.

The MacGregor / Venture line was never high-end, not after the "blue-
water cruiser" market or the "America's Cup" market. But there are a
heck of a lot of them out there and many are still sailing after all
these years. The decks flex sure, but the only time I have known one
to suffer major structural failure was while trailering... hit by
another car...

A lot of the MacGregor boats sail quite well, probably the older swing-
keel Mac 25 was the best (before the water ballast craze).
Unfortunately the 26X/M nonsense has ruined what reputation the older
models had.

DSK

wrote:

JimC wrote:

To summarize this little discussion, it's become quite clear that, other
than anecdotes, hearsay, speculation, and the usual ridicule and
sarcasm, there is no evidence supporting 99% of the negative comments
regarding the Mac26M. - As I initially noted.


You're just like the little old lady who has 47 cats... anybody who
thinks it's not great just plain HATES KITTYS, and must therefor be a
barbarian.

I've had cats, and still prefer dogs. I've sailed a Mac 26X, sailed in
company with the 26M (which despite all ad copy, and your
protestation, is pretty much the same boat)... and they don't sail
very well, period.

BTW I've also sailed the older Mac 26 which was a much better sailing
boat, and a number of the yet-older Ventures.


Martin Baxter wrote:

If I use your methodology, since no one has directly disproved the
ability of Mac26 to be a perfectly survivable and utile manned orbital
vehicle, one would be remiss to suggest that to try this would be folly.







Obviously you have no knowledge or experience with the heat-shielding
properties of un cored fiberglass, with a high proportion of chopper
gun. The Mac 26X (or the MUCH BETTER 26M) would be far better as a
reentry vehicle than most conventional sailboats.

DSK

Obviously, you have no knowledge of the design and construction of the
Mac 26M. In contrast to your assertion, it is made with multiple
fiberglas-resin layups, NOT CHOPPER GUNS. (As to its reentry
characteristics, an outer layer of a silicon zirconium based coating
would of course be recommended.) - You are also misrepresenting the
rationale of my statements regarding the survivability of the Mac 26M at
sea. What I pointed out was that the Mac 26 is one of, if not the most
popular series of sailboats ever made, with thousands still in use both
in the US and in various foreign countries. And many Mac 26 owners (in
the US and in foreign waters) have taken their boats offshore. In view
of the thousands of Mac26s out there, if the Macs had a tendency to
break up and sink under stress of any kind, it would be impossible to
keep that tendency a secret. - Yet so far, no one (on this ng or on the
Mac owners ng) has even heard of ANY Mac26 breaking up and sinking, in
heavy weather conditions, collisions, or other forms of stress.

Secondly, remember that I wasn't the one who posted statements to the
effect that the Macs would break up and sink in severe conditions. Those
statements were posted by Ganz, with gleeful but vacuous support from
several others. Since Ganz and his friends posted those assertions, Ganz
and his friends are the ones who should be providing evidence and proof
supporting their theories. - They haven't, of course, and they clearly
are unable to do so.

Jim