* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/8/2007 1:11 AM:
... This is a myth.

May be. But if you look at the prices for some of the older ones, I
bet they actually list them at more than they cost new. Remember that
anything prior to '95 isn't a X/M. Anyway, the listed price isn't
necessarily the real cost, so you may be right.


The old Macs are a quite different boat. And the value of a "vintage"
boat has little to do with its original price - it is determined by
how well it was maintained, and how much has to be spent to make it
functional. When you buy an old boat you're often really buying and
engine and sails, maybe a trailer.

Yeah, I'm parroting somebody on the Mac group who was looking at
Bayliners for boating/weekending with his wife and kids. He did some
research, and what he said was all reasonable. It's easy enough to
verify.

There is no doubt that some will prefer the styling and layout of the
Mac. That's why it make no sense to just copy statements like this.
There are some million dollar boats that I think are atrocious, some
pocket cruisers that I think are elegant. I'm not a fan of Bayliners,
but they are the lap of luxury compared to a Mac.

Most of those Bayliners (one of my kids had one) have 350's
and are real gas hogs. Never looked myself.

There is certainly no doubt of that. But, it depends on how fast and
far you go.

This is sounding a lot like the mac is the boat for
people who never want to use a boat.

No, just that about every cruising log I've read has multiple
instances of plumbing failures and **** fouling the boat.
Maybe sailors just don't make good plumbers.

I've had my battles with the head, but that doesn't make the
porta-pottie better. And the issue is a bit silly because you can
always remove a head and put in a porta-pottie.

Personally, even though I *was* a plumber, I'd probably go with an
Airhead, and stow an extra **** tank if necessary. They're expensive,
but probably less costly in the long run.

You seem to be infatuated with new gadgets. Don't rely on an internet
comment, find someone who actually has one. From what I've heard,
there are issues if its not used regularly.

And FWIW, I've never seen a boat with **** in the bilge. I have seen
people appalled by someone carrying a porta-pottie through the yacht
club looking for a place to dump it.


And didn't the factory have to add an inspection port so you could
tell if water was accumulating in the bilge? And wasn't that because
the boat would be dangerously unstable with too much bilge water?

Lot's of ways to find something to criticize with any boat. That's
one. The stability stuff is overblown.

Actually, I wasn't sure if your "**** in the bilge" comment was meant
literally or if you thought the Mac always had a dry bilge because of
limited through-hulls. The stability issue with Mac is real, but my
real problem with it is that they market the boat to novices who would
understand the issue the least. I brought it up only to show that the
bilge can accumulate enough water to be a liability.


Wood is just a matter of style - most boats nowadays have very little
outside wood; mine has none.

Some folks just love to spend time rubbing teak.
But for anything but a liveaboard I don't like any more wood
below than necessary. Darkens the quarters, demands
care and covers the mechanicals. For the kind of boat use
I have in mind a spartan boat is better.

You've described a boat with no mechanicals, so I'm not sure what
would be hidden. My boat has lots of wood down below, but it doesn't
prevent access to anything - in fact, its the wood lockers that can be
easily removed to gain access. Its the glassed in parts that are hard
to get to.


6. They are recent - the oldest X is '95, M 2002(?)
OK. Its pretty funny to see the same broker list a new boat at 37K
and a four year old boat at under 22K while you're claiming they "hold
their value."

That 37K broker price means nothing.
What it cost to buy and equip a new boat - Mac or other -
isn't a secret.

Indeed - while the dealer price can be negotiated down, it usually
cost more to get the boat in the water. A used asking price, however,
is often 20% inflated, and any serious issued trigger more negotiation.

In looking at many ads and reading accounts it seems
to me the Mac does real well with resale value, but frankly I haven't
priced many boats that are somewhat comparable, because there just
aren't many out there. I'd pay a nice premium for a boat that had
just simple Mac amenities, gunkholing ability and known good glass,
but better sailing performance. I'd like a small diesel myself, since
I'm not interested in speeding about. Outside of multi-hulls, a
knee-deep anchorage boat with some space aboard will never sail as
well as a keel. But they will sail, and are economical to move, if
slowly.

Here's my choice for a gunkholer ... therd are many others of the
genre. They are pricey new, but there are few issues with a used one.
http://www.marshallcat.com/

If I lived on the water and was more interested in short term personal
boating than long term family cruising, I would get a Marshall and
maybe even something like this:
http://www.parkerboats.net/pages/boa....jsp?boatid=18

One guy has a custom weighted daggerboard ...

People who hack boats hack the one they have - I doubt this guy bought
a new Mac with the intent of "suping it up." There are always people
like this, and more power to them. It just doesn't represent an
endorsement of the boat.

Most of those "advantages" don't hold up to close inspection. With
the exception of being able to use the large engine, they are not much
different from other trailer sailers, except that the don't sail as
nicely. MacGregor did not invent the concept of a simple boat with an
outboard engine.

Yeah, I've heard that before. I clipped a list of trailer sailers
names Doug had in a post, and went looking for them.
Most were 25-40 years old sitting in backyards with birds nesting in
them.

And a lot of them are even MacGregors. That is the fate of old boats.
But since these boats have very few systems, a few days with a
powerwash will clean them up. Add a new 10hp outboard and you could
have a serviceable boat.

There are also new boats and middle aged boats out there.

But if you've got recommendations for gunkholers I'm all ears.
And I'm not keen about trailerable. I might even pay to keep
a trailerable waterside so I don't have to haul it around. The
trailerables are just commonly gunkholers and relatively inexpensive.
If I had my druthers I'd like more beam and length than the
trailerables. But trailerables still fit, since my aim is Florida
west coast key and sandbar excursions, and some Gulf fishing.
Couple weeks at a time. Three weeks max.

Well, I have a catamaran, but there are few of those with a low price
tag. And my choice for a smaller cruiser would be catboat. But what
about all of the swing keel boats out there? There must be plenty
that suit your needs.

Are you sure? I saw some with an asking price under 15K. Without the
big engine maybe you could get one for 12.

That would be great, but I haven't run across that. Anyway, like I
remember Capt'n Neal saying on his website - don't pay an arm and
a leg for your first sailboat. Good advice.

That is certainly good advice - its takes owning a few before you
understand what you really want in a boat. As for prices, just bring
up YachtWorld or Soundings. YW has several under 20K, a few in FL;
and Soundings has even more, including a 1995 with an 8Hp for 10K in
SC. Another has a 2006 50Hp but no mast for 10K in FL.


Yep, the shallow draft is tops on my list. Probably will never do any
ocean sailing. But who knows? I'm all talk right now.
That why I appreciate hearing about sailing from all the real sailors
here. Real people, with real sailing experience.
Ain't that cool?

Yes, but I'll let you in on a secret. We're all liars!