Bart wrote in news:1181249990.297309.49270
@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:


What is nice about them, is people will pay you to
take them away.




You just don't know what you're talking about. Make your stupid lame
jokes but don't expect anybody to laugh because they ain't the least bit
funny, man. Just do some serious price shopping and you'll see how Macs
are selling for new prices even if they are five years old. Sure there's
some rough ones that aren't worth much but that's not the Macs fault.
It's just people who don't take care of anything. You know the type.
They buy something and then let it turn to ****. They use it up rather
than using it.


--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.egordon873.homestead.com/drug.html

Jeff wrote in
:

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/6/2007 4:50 PM:
I've spent the past two days looking at used Mac26Xs. I've seen about
half a dozen that were advertised for sale by owner. I was hoping to
get a real bargain but that seems to be too much to hope for. Why?
Well, it's because everybody luvs their Macs. Two of the sellers said
they'd rather just keep their Macs than sell them for a low-ball
price. One other guy says he buys a couple a year, cleans them up and
fits them out and sells them for thousands more than he paid for
them. He says he never has to sit on them for more than a month at
most and most sell the first week he puts them on the market. I've
seen several really choice ones but they wanted more for them than I
paid for mine new.

That should tell you Mac bashers something. Macs are holding their
resale value so it means they keep staying very popular. I bet your
heavy keel boat can't make that statement. Compared to a Mac26X they
are a bad investiment.


It tells me there are real idiots buying Macs. I mean, really, if you
can make "thousands" of dollars by cleaning the boat, that can only
mean that there was one person so disgusted with it he wanted to dump
it quickly without even cleaning it, and another person will to pay a
premium because it was shiny.




You're the only one here whose an idiot, man. You spent probably two
hours on a post I've gotta answer next and you just wrote lame opinions
and you had some nerve calling them facts. Why do you hate Macs?

People's situtations change. They have a Mac in the driveway and they
have to move or something and they don't want the boat anymore. So they
sell it cheap to keep from having to move it across the country. It's
hard enough moving all their furniture and stuff. And they might be too
far from water to make it easy to go sailing. There's lots of reasons,
man.Use your head. Anything you sell if you detail it you can ask more
for it because it looks sharp. Most people think something that looks
new and shiny must be good and something that looks ratty must be bad.
It's just smart salesmanship.


--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.egordon873.homestead.com/drug.html

Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:50:13 +0200 (CEST), Ed Gordon
wrote:

I've spent the past two days looking at used Mac26Xs. I've seen about
half a dozen that were advertised for sale by owner. I was hoping to
get a real bargain but that seems to be too much to hope for. Why?
Well, it's because everybody luvs their Macs. Two of the sellers said
they'd rather just keep their Macs than sell them for a low-ball
price.

Yeah, they really hold their price. A few likely reasons, in no
particular order. Might be out-of-the-box thinking here, since the
MacX/M are called "Powersailors," not "Sailboats."
1. Even if the owner gets tired or "sailing," he still has a decently
fuel economical and trailerable powerboat, with about the same cabin
space of a $75k Bayliner. But about 18'' draft. Leave mast and sails
at home. Some do that, and look at it as powerboat only.
2. Macs normally don't have holding tanks/stinking hoses, don't smell
like ****, and don't have **** floating in the bilge.
3. You can park it in your yard, and avoid mooring/dock/layup costs.
4. If you decide to go overland, just hook up the trailer and you've
got instant Winnebago.
5. They aren't tricked out like a Victorian whorehouse - very little
wood and cabinetry to maintain. Some people don't think wood and salt
mix. Simple and easily reached electrics. One thru-hull for a sink
drain?
6. They are recent - the oldest X is '95, M 2002(?)
7. While Macs are light, glass quality is consistently good, no balsa
in the hulls. I wouldn't even bother with a survey on these.
8. They sail at the low end of performance. Some sailors modify them
to reach moderate sailing performance in most but light air.
Most of the forgoing items are more important than sailing performance
to Mac buyers. If they just wanted to sail, they'd get a performing
sailboat.

There might be more reasons Macs hold their price, but those are the
big hitters. Some of those reasons are real attractive to me, but
DAMN! I don't have the cash to afford a Mac!
I've read quite a bit on the Mac forum, and boy do I envy those guys.
Super-cool bunch too. Polite and helpful.

One other guy says he buys a couple a year, cleans them up and fits
them out
and sells them for thousands more than he paid for them. He says he
never has to sit on them for more than a month at most and most sell
the first week he puts them on the market. I've seen several really
choice ones but they wanted more for them than I paid for mine new.

That guy was probably lying to you. Lot of that going on.
It's just plain difficult to get any good deal on a Mac.
But not impossible, so maybe this guy is sharp.

That should tell you Mac bashers something. Macs are holding their
resale value so it means they keep staying very popular. I bet your
heavy keel boat can't make that statement. Compared to a Mac26X they
are a bad investiment.

Yeah, but some us just don't look at a boat as an "investment."
Though I just can't afford a Mac right now, doesn't mean I can't
get something cheaper. I can hire a homeless person to pull out
all the warped/rotten cabinets, the "sanitary" and electric systems,
and clean the **** from the bilges if I go for an older keel boat.
But that's only the start on an older cheap boat. And that old keel
is still going to keep it from going into the gunkholes where a Mac
commonly goes.
I don't know, I just don't know. Maybe it's time to visit Capt'n
Neal's website for some advice. I think he covers the best methods
for a non-wealthy person to buy a boat. He's another polite and
helpful guy. Sometimes.

--Vic


Good post Vic. I'm happy to see some objectivity and some common sense
after reading so much crap from "jeff". I remember Capt. Neal well. He
was always trash talking Macs. I'd say he's a worthless little **** but
I suspect he was just playing Devil's advocate. His boat was pretty much
a heavy slow Mac and he was probably jealous he was stuck with an old
boat he couldn't do much with and wished he had a Mac instead. I guess
he was too poor to do much about the situation though.

--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.egordon873.homestead.com/drug.html

Jeff wrote in
:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/7/2007 12:02 AM:

Yeah, they really hold their price.

Do they? I just looked a YachtWorld and there were several about 5
years old that were 2/3 the price of a new one - and that includes a
trailer and a big engine. This is a myth.


I'd say two-thirds new price is exceptional. Most heavy keel boats lose
about half their value in the first two years. So how is that a myth,
man? You're full of it.


A few likely reasons, in no
particular order. Might be out-of-the-box thinking here, since the
MacX/M are called "Powersailors," not "Sailboats."

Yes, its true they have a unique niche, and for some people its a good
choice. If you like to drive around the country and power/sail in
lakes, it could be nice.


Now you're talking sense. Macs are the most versatile sailboat going.


1. Even if the owner gets tired or "sailing," he still has a
decently fuel economical and trailerable powerboat, with about the
same cabin space of a $75k Bayliner. But about 18'' draft. Leave
mast and sails at home. Some do that, and look at it as powerboat
only.

There are much, much better powerboats, including the Bayliner. And
are you sure about that comparison, or are you just parroting someone
else's comment? The Bayliner will carry more people further and
faster and in much more comfort than the Mac. And it only draws 20".


Powerboats cost about twice as much new. You pay huge sums for those
expensive inboard motors. You guzzle gas and you can't sail to save on
gas. Macs are better in almost every way.And you forgot about all the
space inside that those inboard motors (twins in most cases) take up.
That's space you can't use. All the space inside a Mac is usable space.


2. Macs normally don't have holding tanks/stinking hoses, don't
smell like ****, and don't have **** floating in the bilge.

Are you seriously claiming that having to use a porta-pottie is a
major advantage? This is sounding a lot like the mac is the boat for
people who never want to use a boat.

And didn't the factory have to add an inspection port so you could
tell if water was accumulating in the bilge? And wasn't that because
the boat would be dangerously unstable with too much bilge water?

Porta-potties are much better. You comply with the law and you don't
have plumbing trouble. You don't have thru-hulls and holding tanks and
plumbing to leak and stink. I've been inside some expensive yachts and
they all smelled like **** and diesel fuel. Yuck. At least you have
clean air in a Mac.

And you need to get a clue, man. Macs put water in the bilge tank to
make them MORE stable for sailing. How can you claim bilge water makes
them less stable. Busted!


3. You can park it in your yard, and avoid mooring/dock/layup costs.

True, but how is this different from all of the other trailer boats?

4. If you decide to go overland, just hook up the trailer and you've
got instant Winnebago.

True, but how is this different from all of the other trailer boats?

Just because it's not different from other boats doesn't make it any
less of an attractive feature, does it? You might have brown hair and
lots of other people have brown hair but that doesn't mean brown hair
isn't good to have.


5. They aren't tricked out like a Victorian whorehouse - very little
wood and cabinetry to maintain. Some people don't think wood and
salt mix. Simple and easily reached electrics. One thru-hull for a
sink drain?

This speaks more to a desire to do limited inland, daysailing. I go
out for several weeks at a time, sometimes with guests. We've cruised
for a year at a time. Would you want to do that with just a little
porta-pottie?

Wood is just a matter of style - most boats nowadays have very little
outside wood; mine has none.

Wood is a matter of work. It doesn't last long unless you keep after it.
You gotta paint and varnish and sand and seal. The more fiberglass all
you have to do is wipe it off once in a while and wax it sometimes and
it's done.


6. They are recent - the oldest X is '95, M 2002(?)

OK. Its pretty funny to see the same broker list a new boat at 37K
and a four year old boat at under 22K while you're claiming they "hold
their value."


Liar. Prove it, man. And even if you can prove it it's only one case.
One case doesn't make it the case for the majority of for sale Macs.


7. While Macs are light, glass quality is consistently good, no
balsa in the hulls. I wouldn't even bother with a survey on these.

You must be the type of person who always wins at the casino.


He just happens to be right. The fiberglass on Macs is premium quality.
I challenge you to find ONE Mac with osmosis blisters.


8. They sail at the low end of performance. Some sailors modify
them to reach moderate sailing performance in most but light air.

whatever - certainly there are a few who have stripped them out and
sail without ballast, but is this a reason to buy one???

Most of the forgoing items are more important than sailing
performance to Mac buyers. If they just wanted to sail, they'd get a
performing sailboat.

Most of those "advantages" don't hold up to close inspection. With
the exception of being able to use the large engine, they are not much
different from other trailer sailers, except that the don't sail as
nicely. MacGregor did not invent the concept of a simple boat with an
outboard engine.


Bull, you don't sail a Mac. You never sailed a Mac because you're
talking out your ass, man.



There might be more reasons Macs hold their price, but those are the
big hitters.

I'm sorry, are you really claiming they hold their value because they
have a porta-pottie???

Let it go, man. you're wrong and you know it. It's got nothing to do
with porti-potties. It's got everything to do with simple, low maintence
and safety. Macs are used mostly for day-sailing. You don't need a built
in toilet with smelly holding tanks that break and leak.


Some of those reasons are real attractive to me, but
DAMN! I don't have the cash to afford a Mac!

Are you sure? I saw some with an asking price under 15K. Without the
big engine maybe you could get one for 12.

Hey, the big engine makes the boat. You just don't understand. When you
need to go someplace in a hurry you fire up the big engine. A fifty HP
Honda gets better gas mileage than a diesel. It uses maybe half a quart
an hour at half throttle which is about twenty miles an hour.


I've read quite a bit on the Mac forum, and boy do I envy those guys.
Super-cool bunch too. Polite and helpful.

You mean like boaters almost everywhere, except at ASA?

Did you read that, man. A cool bunch. Mac owners share a certain
comradry that keelboaters don't. Keelboaters like you are snobs who just
can'f fit in. Mac owners are social people who like each other's
company.



One other guy says he buys a couple a year, cleans them up and fits
them out and sells them for thousands more than he paid for them. He
says he never has to sit on them for more than a month at most and
most sell the first week he puts them on the market. I've seen
several really choice ones but they wanted more for them than I paid
for mine new.

That guy was probably lying to you. Lot of that going on.
It's just plain difficult to get any good deal on a Mac.
But not impossible, so maybe this guy is sharp.

Duh! Ed is making this up. If it is Ed.

You calling me a liar? What an ass!


But remember, Neal lost his "unsinkable" boat.


Then maybe he'll get an unsinkable Mac26X instead. I think you can buy
one from the factory with that option.

So stop with all the negativism will ya? What do you gain complaining
all the time and putting other people's boats down?


--
Cheerio,
Ed Gordon
http://www.egordon873.homestead.com/drug.html

* Ed Gordon wrote, On 6/8/2007 12:33 PM:
Jeff wrote in
:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 6/7/2007 12:02 AM:
Yeah, they really hold their price.
Do they? I just looked a YachtWorld and there were several about 5
years old that were 2/3 the price of a new one - and that includes a
trailer and a big engine. This is a myth.


I'd say two-thirds new price is exceptional. Most heavy keel boats lose
about half their value in the first two years. So how is that a myth,
man? You're full of it.

You are totally delusional. Most boats hold their value pretty well
for the first few years. A broker offered me 105% of the original
price for my boat when it was 2 years old. At 8 years its still worth
over 80%. This is why I'm so surprised when people claim Macs hold
their value, when compared to most, their value seems to plummet.


... If you like to drive around the country and power/sail in
lakes, it could be nice.


Now you're talking sense. Macs are the most versatile sailboat going.

And yet, you claim I "hate Macs."


Powerboats cost about twice as much new. You pay huge sums for those
expensive inboard motors. You guzzle gas and you can't sail to save on
gas. Macs are better in almost every way.And you forgot about all the
space inside that those inboard motors (twins in most cases) take up.
That's space you can't use. All the space inside a Mac is usable space.

It doesn't change the fact that a $75K Bayliner has a nicer interior.
That was the only point discussed.


2. Macs normally don't have holding tanks/stinking hoses, don't
smell like ****, and don't have **** floating in the bilge.
Are you seriously claiming that having to use a porta-pottie is a
major advantage? This is sounding a lot like the mac is the boat for
people who never want to use a boat.

And didn't the factory have to add an inspection port so you could
tell if water was accumulating in the bilge? And wasn't that because
the boat would be dangerously unstable with too much bilge water?

Porta-potties are much better. You comply with the law and you don't
have plumbing trouble. You don't have thru-hulls and holding tanks and
plumbing to leak and stink. I've been inside some expensive yachts and
they all smelled like **** and diesel fuel. Yuck. At least you have
clean air in a Mac.

If someone thinks a porta-pottie is better, is there any reason why
they can't put one in any boat? Of course not. In fact, many, if not
most trailer boats use a porta-pottie.


And you need to get a clue, man. Macs put water in the bilge tank to
make them MORE stable for sailing. How can you claim bilge water makes
them less stable. Busted!

Busted??? You're the one busted. Here's a quote from the Mac web site:

"DO NOT OPERATE THE BOAT WITH A LOT OF WATER IN THE BILGE (OUTSIDE OF
THE BALLAST TANK). It can slosh around and seriously degrade
stability. Always keep your bilges dry. Check the bilge frequently.
There are a number of places where water can collect. Check them all."

As I said, my issue with the stability of Macs is that the novices
that buy them don't fully understand the problem. It looks like you
just proved my point.


3. You can park it in your yard, and avoid mooring/dock/layup costs.
True, but how is this different from all of the other trailer boats?

4. If you decide to go overland, just hook up the trailer and you've
got instant Winnebago.
True, but how is this different from all of the other trailer boats?

Just because it's not different from other boats doesn't make it any
less of an attractive feature, does it? You might have brown hair and
lots of other people have brown hair but that doesn't mean brown hair
isn't good to have.

Vic was implying that these are unique advantages of the Mac. I never
said the Mac was bad because of it, only that there are a number of
other boats with the same attributes.


Wood is just a matter of style - most boats nowadays have very little
outside wood; mine has none.

Wood is a matter of work. It doesn't last long unless you keep after it.
You gotta paint and varnish and sand and seal. The more fiberglass all
you have to do is wipe it off once in a while and wax it sometimes and
it's done.

Interior wood takes very little effort to keep new. My 11 year old
daughter oiled all of ours in an hour or so last weekend. If you want
to live in a clorox bottle, that's your privilege.


6. They are recent - the oldest X is '95, M 2002(?)
OK. Its pretty funny to see the same broker list a new boat at 37K
and a four year old boat at under 22K while you're claiming they "hold
their value."


Liar. Prove it, man.

Just look on YachtWorld. The boats in question were in Punta Gorda;
the new boat is gone, but the used one is still there. They do have a
new without engine for 21, and a nearby private party is selling a new
one for 37.9. Punta Gorda is also selling several 26X's for under 16K.

And even if you can prove it it's only one case.
One case doesn't make it the case for the majority of for sale Macs.

Sorry - its the cheapest boat that makes the market when there are
educated buyers. In fact I found a lot of Macs much cheaper than the
new price. Just look on Soundings and YachtWorld. And these are just
the asking prices, we don't get to see what they actually sold for.



7. While Macs are light, glass quality is consistently good, no
balsa in the hulls. I wouldn't even bother with a survey on these.
You must be the type of person who always wins at the casino.


He just happens to be right. The fiberglass on Macs is premium quality.
I challenge you to find ONE Mac with osmosis blisters.

So you personally guarantee the quality of every Mac (and its engine)
that is sold. That's real decent of you. Frankly, I'd like to have a
professional look it over carefully for hidden problems before I lay
down my money.



8. They sail at the low end of performance. Some sailors modify
them to reach moderate sailing performance in most but light air.
whatever - certainly there are a few who have stripped them out and
sail without ballast, but is this a reason to buy one???

Most of the forgoing items are more important than sailing
performance to Mac buyers. If they just wanted to sail, they'd get a
performing sailboat.
Most of those "advantages" don't hold up to close inspection. With
the exception of being able to use the large engine, they are not much
different from other trailer sailers, except that the don't sail as
nicely. MacGregor did not invent the concept of a simple boat with an
outboard engine.


Bull, you don't sail a Mac. You never sailed a Mac because you're
talking out your ass, man.

How do you know I've never sailed one? The performance numbers are
out there; there's no secret about them.


There might be more reasons Macs hold their price, but those are the
big hitters.
I'm sorry, are you really claiming they hold their value because they
have a porta-pottie???

Let it go, man. you're wrong and you know it. It's got nothing to do
with porti-potties. It's got everything to do with simple, low maintence
and safety. Macs are used mostly for day-sailing. You don't need a built
in toilet with smelly holding tanks that break and leak.

You really don't understand the issue. ANY small boat can have a
porta-pottie. Having one doesn't make the Mac special. I think Vic
talked about going out for up to three weeks - how many times would he
have to empty the pottie?



Some of those reasons are real attractive to me, but
DAMN! I don't have the cash to afford a Mac!
Are you sure? I saw some with an asking price under 15K. Without the
big engine maybe you could get one for 12.

Hey, the big engine makes the boat. You just don't understand. When you
need to go someplace in a hurry you fire up the big engine. A fifty HP
Honda gets better gas mileage than a diesel. It uses maybe half a quart
an hour at half throttle which is about twenty miles an hour.

So now its clear you have no actual experience with a Mac. The 50 hp
Honda would have a lot of trouble pushing the boat at 20mph; it
probably tops out at 17. And, it would be burning about 4 gallons an
hour (or more) doing it. Even throttled way back it would probably
burn a gallon an hour, which is more than my diesels pushing a boat
that weighs three times as much.


I've read quite a bit on the Mac forum, and boy do I envy those guys.
Super-cool bunch too. Polite and helpful.
You mean like boaters almost everywhere, except at ASA?

Did you read that, man. A cool bunch. Mac owners share a certain
comradry that keelboaters don't.

So what happened to you? Did they throw you out?

Keelboaters like you are snobs who just
can'f fit in.

What makes you think I'm a keelboater?

Mac owners are social people who like each other's
company.

No one else would have them?

Sorry Ed, only a real jerk would claim that one group of boaters are
inherently better than another.


One other guy says he buys a couple a year, cleans them up and fits
them out and sells them for thousands more than he paid for them. He
says he never has to sit on them for more than a month at most and
most sell the first week he puts them on the market. I've seen
several really choice ones but they wanted more for them than I paid
for mine new.

That guy was probably lying to you. Lot of that going on.
It's just plain difficult to get any good deal on a Mac.
But not impossible, so maybe this guy is sharp.
Duh! Ed is making this up. If it is Ed.

You calling me a liar? What an ass!

Hey, you proved it with some of your claims here.


But remember, Neal lost his "unsinkable" boat.


Then maybe he'll get an unsinkable Mac26X instead. I think you can buy
one from the factory with that option.

So stop with all the negativism will ya? What do you gain complaining
all the time and putting other people's boats down?

Where did I put down anyone's boat? First of all neither you nor Vic
even have a Mac. Second, I didn't say anything negative about the Mac
other than there are other boats that sail better. I've said many
times that there are certain situations for which the Mac is an
appropriate choice.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
*

A broker offered me 105% of the original
price for my boat when it was 2 years old.

BFD, a broker offered me 175% of the selling price, one day
after I bought my boat.

Scotty

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
*

A broker offered me 105% of the original
price for my boat when it was 2 years old.

BFD, a broker offered me 175% of the selling price, one day
after I bought my boat.

Scotty

You need to remember that Jeff has a catamaran. Those things have a
limited following which gets more limited every time a story of one
capsizing with loss of life appears in the news.

Start noticing the type of individuals you see on multi-hulls. You will
NEVER see any owner who is not obese and unable to balance on a regular
sailboat. You will see children and dogs that need a stable platform.
You will see multiple electrical systems that do all the work so the
out-of-shape crew doesn't have to because they aren't able to. You will
see generators running and air conditioners going because the crew is
not really sailors but lubbers who are more interested in a floating
galley where they can prepare and consume gourmet meals three or four
times a day. You will see a liquor cabinet or locker bigger than fuel
tank which is never less than fifty gallons. I think you get the point.
And, because of all this . . .

Unlike your boat, Jeff's catamaran is unsafe in anything but sheltered
waters. If your boat gets knocked down it will come back up. If Jeff's
catamaran gets knocked down it will turn turtle and stay that way until
it washes up on shore someplace. (if it lasts that long without breaking
up!) If the crew gets tossed overboard they will drown. If they are
trapped inside they will eventually suffocate. That's the choice the man
has made. And he says he loves his family. Hah! Would YOU put your loved
ones in harm's way like that?

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

You will see a liquor cabinet or locker bigger than fuel
tank which is never less than fifty gallons.

Where do I sign up?

SBV

* Scotty wrote, On 6/9/2007 9:41 AM:
"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
*

A broker offered me 105% of the original
price for my boat when it was 2 years old.

BFD, a broker offered me 175% of the selling price, one day
after I bought my boat.

Wow! You could have earned yourself a quick case of beer!

And yet, my boat has traveled up and down the East Coast from Canada
to Key West, and its still going strong. Yours never got 200 miles
from home, and is now a yellow smudge on the ocean bottom.

BTW, no electric winches, no generator, no A/C, not too much booze.
But yes, we eat rather well.


* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 6/9/2007 10:00 AM:

You need to remember that Jeff has a catamaran. Those things have a
limited following which gets more limited every time a story of one
capsizing with loss of life appears in the news.

Start noticing the type of individuals you see on multi-hulls. You will
NEVER see any owner who is not obese and unable to balance on a regular
sailboat. You will see children and dogs that need a stable platform.
You will see multiple electrical systems that do all the work so the
out-of-shape crew doesn't have to because they aren't able to. You will
see generators running and air conditioners going because the crew is
not really sailors but lubbers who are more interested in a floating
galley where they can prepare and consume gourmet meals three or four
times a day. You will see a liquor cabinet or locker bigger than fuel
tank which is never less than fifty gallons. I think you get the point.
And, because of all this . . .

Unlike your boat, Jeff's catamaran is unsafe in anything but sheltered
waters. If your boat gets knocked down it will come back up. If Jeff's
catamaran gets knocked down it will turn turtle and stay that way until
it washes up on shore someplace. (if it lasts that long without breaking
up!) If the crew gets tossed overboard they will drown. If they are
trapped inside they will eventually suffocate. That's the choice the man
has made. And he says he loves his family. Hah! Would YOU put your loved
ones in harm's way like that?

Wilbur Hubbard