"krj" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example
a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat
building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps
or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people
in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards.
About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no
standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's
six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in
this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no
standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly
attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few
examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any
accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is
the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof
that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine
anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually
paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat
building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of
affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking
around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap,
shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in
your things means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.


You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her?

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"krj" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
...
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example
a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to
any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition.
Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat
building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps
or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people
in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards.
About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no
standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's
six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in
this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no
standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly
attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few
examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any
accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is
the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof
that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine
anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually
paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat
building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of
affairs has eventuated.

Wilbur Hubbard



Never heard of the 'throw away society'?


Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a
cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use.
Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking
around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap,
shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in
your things means no pride in yourself. Sad!

Wilbur Hubbard
Wilber,
I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap
posing as a human being.


You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her?

Wilbur Hubbard
Swan 68? You really are delusional. It's a musturd yellow Coronado that
was in Buttonwood or Black Water Sound a couple of years ago

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry
to represent quality.
Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like
a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced.
Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and
the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here.
Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and
manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced
boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their
efforts on that issue.
Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business?
The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used,
laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your
shallow method of "standards."
Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars
who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten
upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many
times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its
engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is
"classic."
Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum
to view such fossils.
Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs
from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority
than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats,
which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape
in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which
can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef."
More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials
and that tried and true construction techniques are used.
Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done
considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years
of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a
thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about
one man-year of sensible data.
Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers
under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water
sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood
designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error
which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats
being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial
build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of
your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but
reality steps in even there.
Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know
that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal
Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make
a note anyway.
To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one
actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of
materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck
materials and attentive construction process are the premier
consideration to me.
All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design
constraints.
I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS,
but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path
of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably
put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not.
Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an
owner may provide class to any boat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a
sailboat
built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing
accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's
yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed.
You
should ask yourself why.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these
days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of
the
people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since
most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and
half-dozen
of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive
hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the
people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards.
These
are but a few examples of a standard-less society.

Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots!
Take
the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people
these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody
concerned
with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money
for
a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's
incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated.

Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry
to represent quality.
Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like
a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced.
Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and
the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here.
Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and
manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced
boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their
efforts on that issue.
Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business?
The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used,
laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your
shallow method of "standards."
Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars
who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten
upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many
times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its
engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is
"classic."
Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum
to view such fossils.
Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs
from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority
than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats,
which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape
in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which
can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef."
More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials
and that tried and true construction techniques are used.
Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done
considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years
of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a
thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about
one man-year of sensible data.
Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers
under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water
sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood
designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error
which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats
being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial
build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of
your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but
reality steps in even there.
Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know
that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal
Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make
a note anyway.
To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one
actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of
materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck
materials and attentive construction process are the premier
consideration to me.
All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design
constraints.
I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS,
but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path
of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably
put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not.
Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an
owner may provide class to any boat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm

--Vic

Some good thoughts but there need be no gray areas and shoddy building
practices if one builds a sailboat according to Lloyds standards. Good
building practices are no accident and they generally always result in a
more expensive boat. The only way to produce an inexpensive boat is to
not build it to high standards. People know this but they go ahead and
buy junk and they buy junk in bulk quantities. It's stupid and it's
shameful. If you build a boat to Lloyds specifications you must have
almost everything inspected and checked off a punch list. The inspector
insures there are no shortcuts or shoddy workmanship. The inspector is
not free. So, of course the selling price of the yacht must be higher.
It all goes back to standards. But a boat built to Lloyds standards and
you get the best. Buy a piece of garbage like the MacGregor and you are
guaranteed a cut-corners boat.

Owning a cut-corners boat demonstrates for the entire world to see that
the owner is a cut-corners type of guy. If a lawyer is proud of his
MacGregor 26 then that tells me he's a cut-corners person and not the
person I want litigating an important case where cutting corners will
most likely be disastrous. If my doctor owns and is proud of a Mac26
then what corners is he going to cut when he operates on me. Is he going
to wash his hands thoroughly? Is he going to use autoclaved instruments?
So, when I see any cut-corners kind of guy out in a Mac26 I have to ask
myself what other corners is this guy going to cut. Does he even know
the basic navigation rules? Does he know how to anchor? Does he have the
proper safety equipment? After all he has already demonstrated that he
has no standards because of his boat purchase. Isn't it likely his
sloppiness and lack of standards permeates his entire life? I think so.
That's why I don't want any Macgregor's anywhere near me. The good news
is offshore where I am most of the time one rarely sees a Mac26 because
even if Mac owners have low standards they still value their lives
enough to stay within site of land.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:37:38 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Wilbur,
You are making the mistake od assuming that people carry their
diligence or lack of in their profession to all aspects of their
lives. As a general truth, they don't. Life and individual behaviour
are not that consistent, not that black and white. Your simplistic
arguement does not hold true.

There are several examples of this. How many of us males who are known
for our rational and intelligent decision making in our careers have
married a pretty face only to learn later that "a pretty face is high
maintenance"? How many successful parents when faced with wayward
children initially refuse to believe the evidence yest it was apparent
to others all along? How many of us with good financial acumen in
investments and property make decisions to purchase something based
upon other than "the best buy for your money"?

People are not consistent, not by any means.

regards
Peter
Owning a cut-corners boat demonstrates for the entire world to see that
the owner is a cut-corners type of guy. If a lawyer is proud of his
MacGregor 26 then that tells me he's a cut-corners person and not the
person I want litigating an important case where cutting corners will
most likely be disastrous. If my doctor owns and is proud of a Mac26
then what corners is he going to cut when he operates on me. Is he going
to wash his hands thoroughly? Is he going to use autoclaved instruments?
So, when I see any cut-corners kind of guy out in a Mac26 I have to ask
myself what other corners is this guy going to cut. Does he even know
the basic navigation rules? Does he know how to anchor? Does he have the
proper safety equipment? After all he has already demonstrated that he
has no standards because of his boat purchase. Isn't it likely his
sloppiness and lack of standards permeates his entire life? I think so.
That's why I don't want any Macgregor's anywhere near me. The good news
is offshore where I am most of the time one rarely sees a Mac26 because
even if Mac owners have low standards they still value their lives
enough to stay within site of land.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Peter Hendra" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:37:38 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Wilbur,
You are making the mistake od assuming that people carry their
diligence or lack of in their profession to all aspects of their
lives. As a general truth, they don't. Life and individual behaviour
are not that consistent, not that black and white. Your simplistic
arguement does not hold true.

There are several examples of this. How many of us males who are known
for our rational and intelligent decision making in our careers have
married a pretty face only to learn later that "a pretty face is high
maintenance"? How many successful parents when faced with wayward
children initially refuse to believe the evidence yest it was apparent
to others all along? How many of us with good financial acumen in
investments and property make decisions to purchase something based
upon other than "the best buy for your money"?

People are not consistent, not by any means.


True, but I'd rather associate with people with high standards who are
inconsistent than people with low standards who are inconsistent. Make
sense?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Mar 31, 8:41 am, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

Yet, today's yacht
purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are
more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You
should ask yourself why.

Pretty simple........... they got diffrent standards than you. They
want a boat that is fun to sit in, drink wine, and pretend they ahve a
slice of the rich and famous life.

Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days
themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this
country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards.


Whooooo dude. Im a member of the Democratic party and belive me I have
some very specific standards. That is why I DID NOT vote for BUSH!
Just because I do stuff that you do not agree with or understand dont
mean I aint got standards. Just means your so ****ing stupid you can
not recognize there is more than one way to do things.


Less than half the people
in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards.

Again, I got morals and standards, and ethics, etc............. they
just aint the same as yours. For example, I dont agree with what you
say. Therefor, I have high moral standards Standards that you fall
woefully short of attaining.


Neither boat is built to any accepted
standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading
seller in that size range.

So, a lot of people enjoy them cause they're fun and can buy them.

Now dont go telling me that I can buy a ****ty hamburger cause it
anint good enough to meet your standards of a hamburger. Just so
happens I like cheep lousy burgers. So dont go telling me I got poor
tast or dont meet your standards..... GFY! (oh that means Go ****
Yourself if you do not meet my standard of inteligence).

Thanks for the troll. Its a good reminder that there really are lots
of nut cases who want to legislate their morality and standards on me.
That is why I vote Democrtatic. Dont like thoes bible thumping Teliban
types in the White House. Eight years is enough. I hope I offered
enough words for your troll to get somthing going here. I got to fill
some holes with epoxy now the temp is up.
Good one Wilbur
Bob

PS I deleted the post to .crusing. I dont like posting this kind of
**** over there.

Wilbur Hubbard