wrote in message
oups.com...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
........ Ask yourself do you
have time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry and playthings
that
divert your attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade?

Other than the boat(s) you mean?

For some of us boats are anything but playthings and diversions. For
some of us boats are a way of life. But, I don't suppose you'd know
about that.


.... If anybody
but myself answers negative on all the above then he is a liar.

That's right, pat yourself on the back.

Not only am I right but I am a realist enough to know it.


..... I'm
willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has and never
has
had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage in his entire
life.

So what? What si the point of *never* utilizing credit? That would be
every bit as stupid as *always* using credit.

The point is you don't need credit. It's just another way to spend above
your means. More importantly, as Hayden points out, it's a way to be
trapped by the system. It's a method of slavery.

There are times when it is cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash. If you can manage to
borrow without usury then it's even steven. But who borrows without
usury these days?

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
message news:la3Hh.17150

The point is you don't need credit. It's just another way
to spend above
your means. More importantly, as Hayden points out, it's a
way to be
trapped by the system. It's a method of slavery.

If you know what you're doing, one can make money with good
credit. Obviously this leaves you out.

SBV

"Scotty" w@u wrote in message
. ..

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
message news:la3Hh.17150

The point is you don't need credit. It's just another way
to spend above
your means. More importantly, as Hayden points out, it's a
way to be
trapped by the system. It's a method of slavery.

If you know what you're doing, one can make money with good
credit. Obviously this leaves you out.

Ha ha ha ha! You can, indeed, make money with good credit and bad credit
for that matter. That's why credit card companies are as rich as they
are. They didn't get that rich by borrowing money. They got that rich by
lending money. Kinda shows how ignorant you are. Not to mention how
unobservant. Look around you. Every big bank building you see, every big
insurance complex you see, every big credit card center you see got that
way from lending. If you could get so rich from borrowing, those
companies would be borrowing from you and paying you outrageous interest
payments.

You're a sucker and a dumb one at that. People justify borrowing and
jump though hoops trying to justify it but I can shoot down each and
every one of their fallacious arguments just like I just shot down
yours. The next thing you'll be telling me is how fabulous an investment
a house is. Believe me a house NEVER can return more than you paid for
it provided you add up all the expenses, inflation of currency and
taxes.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
message ...


If you know what you're doing, one can make money with
good
credit. Obviously this leaves you out.

I can shoot down each and
every one of their fallacious arguments just like I just
shot down
yours.


No you can't and no you didn't. You have no clue whatsoever.


The next thing you'll be telling me is how fabulous an
investment
a house is.

Fabulous?, A solid investment, absolutely.

SBV

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

Malarkey.

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.



..... But who borrows without
usury these days?


You're confused.

1- interest rates are near historic lows.

2- usury is the charging of excess interest, it has nothing to do
with the borrower.

DSK

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
It is NEVER cheaper to borrow than to pay cash.

Malarkey.

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

Oh my gawd, yet another brainwashed sucker whose bubble I must break.

If your bond fund returns 8% then you will not be able to borrow at 6%
interest.
Not possible. Nobody who's sane is going to lend you money to you at 6%
when they can lend it to an institution and get 8% for it.


Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card service charge. I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing checking account
will pay you.
Credit card companies aren't stupid. Why would they bother to give you a
card when they could do just what you suggest doing? They'd simply cut
out the middle man.


That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

Voodoo math. It only works if you leave out production costs...

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.

Negative, sarge. All the wealth you see in the hands of the credit card
companies would be evenly distributed among the general population.

You're confused.

1- interest rates are near historic lows.

2- usury is the charging of excess interest, it has nothing to do
with the borrower.

You're confused. Usury is just another name for interest. Any rate of
interest is usury. Interest rates are near historic lows. I agree. They
go in cycles. What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for investing. The man
who wishes to get rich lends. That's a fact.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard"

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card
service charge.

Service charge? WTF?

I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing
checking account
will pay you.

WRONG!


Credit card companies aren't stupid.

No, but they're greedy. One can take advantage of this if
one knows how. Obviosly you don't.




Voodoo math.

Translation; I don't understand it.



What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for
investing. The man
who wishes to get rich lends. That's a fact.


Your fact is WRONG!

SBV

If I have $X invested in a bond fund that is earning 8% interest (and
helping businesses produce goods & services, providing employment etc
etc); and I can borrow $X at 6% interest, then I would be stupid to
cash in bonds to buy anything.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
Oh my gawd, yet another brainwashed sucker whose bubble I must break.


Go ahead

If your bond fund returns 8% then you will not be able to borrow at 6%
interest.

Wrong.

In fact, there are many bond funds paying upwards of 9% on high grade
commercial paper (ie no junk bonds). One can relatively easily get a
house mortgage at 6.5%

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AHITX
scroll down and check the 5 year average return. And that's one of the
big house plain vanilla bond funds.

Not possible. Nobody who's sane is going to lend you money to you at 6%
when they can lend it to an institution and get 8% for it.


Go talk to "them" because "they" are doing exactly that.



Better yet, if I can borrow money interest free, such as on a credit
card which will be paid in full at the end of the month, then I can
leav money in my interest-bearing checking account longer and gain
more interest accrued to me.

You seem to have forgotten all about the credit card service charge.

Wrong again. Perfect record!

If one pays his credit card bill before interest charges accrue, then
one does not pay interest. On my credit card bill, under "interest"
and "service charge" there is a big fat ZERO.



..... I'm
afraid you will pay them more than any interest bearing checking account
will pay you.

Oh, don't be afraid. It's not manly.


Credit card companies aren't stupid. Why would they bother to give you a
card when they could do just what you suggest doing? They'd simply cut
out the middle man.


Because then they wouldn't be a "credit card company" they'd be
arbitragers. And for those who *don't* pay their bill in a timely
manner, interest rates are higher yet. A very expensive way to borrow
money.


That's not to mention the use of credit to acquire capital goods for
production of wealth at a higher rate than the interest charged.

Voodoo math. It only works if you leave out production costs...


Spoken from your years of experience as a CEO.

Guess what, just about all the business world makes a profit by
borrowing money. What do you think stocks & corporate bonds are all
about?

If it were not for the *intelligent* use of credit, we would still be
living in caves or perhaps thatched huts.

Negative, sarge. All the wealth you see in the hands of the credit card
companies would be evenly distributed among the general population.


So you're a Marxist now?



You're confused. Usury is just another name for interest.


Ummm, no.

Any rate of
interest is usury.

Wrong.

Go look it up.

And "Usury" is still a demerit to the kender, the one who charges
usuriously, not the borrower.


.... What ALWAYS remains constant is the borrower is charged
higher interest for borrowing than he receives for investing.

Nope. Done it for years. I guess you think the earth is flat, too.
Careful you don't sail off the edge!

DSK

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has and
never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Neal,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You have an
interesting take on things, and although it would take the complete collapse
of my life as it exists now to find myself in a similar lifestyle, I would
probably find some happiness in a spartan existence. At least for a while. I
think I would soon yearn to accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point
is that those new things, at least initially, could be new sailing
adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat and ate
a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated something
about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into peppers than I. I
would never challenge him in a pepper eating contest. I still like peppers,
it's just that I like a plate of beans and rice with them.
Scout

"Scout" wrote in message
. ..
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote
[snipped]
..... I'm willing to wager that I am the only asa subscriber who has
and never has had time payments, has and never has had a mortgage ...
[snipped]
Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur,
I appreciate the fact that you share your perspective with us. You
have an interesting take on things, and although it would take the
complete collapse of my life as it exists now to find myself in a
similar lifestyle, I would probably find some happiness in a spartan
existence. At least for a while. I think I would soon yearn to
accomplish new things though. Perhaps your point is that those new
things, at least initially, could be new sailing adventures?

I like a bit of hot pepper on my food. I had a student once who sat
and ate a bowlful of hot peppers while I watched. We both appreciated
something about the flavor and feel, but he was clearly more into
peppers than I. I would never challenge him in a pepper eating
contest. I still like peppers, it's just that I like a plate of beans
and rice with them.
Scout

Your take on food gives insight into your take on life. Hot peppers
serve only to burn out your taste buds to such an extent that you can no
longer taste the subtleties of milder foods. To taste something hot you
deny yourself tasting something mild. There are many more foods of a
milder and subtler nature than of a hot. So, gorge the few you deny
yourself the many. Dumb!

Overdoing life by borrowing is just another sign of gluttony of the hot
and spicy. People borrow because they want something above their means
and they want it now. In doing so they miss out on things that really
matter. Things such as realizing the real value of your labor vs. what
you can purchase with it. Things such as being patient. Things such as
never having to say, "I just don't have time." Things such as enjoying
the taste of the milder things in life without covering them up with the
hot and spicy. As with food, a mild life is easier to appreciate and
better for your health and well-being than a hot and spicy life. This
should be evident when viewed in the light of oh-so-many celebrities who
self-destruct. They can have anything they want. They generally try
everything hot and spicy and it all disappoints and disrupts to such an
extent they suicide or nervous breakdown, etc. When's the last time you
heard of a Buddhist Monk being so maladjusted in life?

One of the basic truths in life is simplicity. Many authors espouse the
simple life. Many readers say, "How cool is that!" But, then they go
right back to their overspent, overbudgeted, overharried, overextended
lives. It's an addiction that results in ruin. When you are thirsty go
to the well. Draw out a large draft and drink your fill. Don't run
around from lemonade stand to lemonade stand quaffing thimbleful after
thimbleful which results in continued thirst.

Wilbur Hubbard