When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:32:19 -0500, jlrogers±³© wrote
(in article ):

When is it salvage and when is it stealing?



If it is mine then you are stealing. If it is anyone else's then it is
salvaging.........

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass

jlrogers±³© wrote:
When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

It's salvage when property or goods are saved from damage or
destruction.

It is stealing when you take something that does not belong to you,
like in Britian now. The stuff in the surf is Ligan, and belongs to the
owner of the ship. The vessel was not a derelict.

The guy who got a tractor out and walked with a dozen BMW's has to
report the salvage, and will get compensated for his efforts. The
amount will be decided by a judge. If he does not report the salvage he
is stealing.

There are two type of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage.
Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement
of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the
salvor is paid regardless regardless of whether the salvage is
successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged
without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is
made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage . In
this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim.
It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form
salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency
contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided
at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the
case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form
salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states
"no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the
owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to
risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both
themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three
requirements must be meet: The vessel must be in peril, the services
must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual
obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.

I have a copy of Lloyds LOF aboard RedCloud, you never know when you
can become the owner of a ship.

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/shiplaw/fulltext/lof2000.pdf


Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

jlrogers±³© wrote:
When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

It's salvage when property or goods are saved from damage or
destruction.

It is stealing when you take something that does not belong to you,
like in Britian now. The stuff in the surf is Ligan, and belongs to the
owner of the ship. The vessel was not a derelict.

The guy who got a tractor out and walked with a dozen BMW's has to
report the salvage, and will get compensated for his efforts. The
amount will be decided by a judge. If he does not report the salvage he
is stealing.

There are two type of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage.
Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement
of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the
salvor is paid regardless regardless of whether the salvage is
successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged
without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is
made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage . In
this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim.
It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form
salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency
contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided
at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the
case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form
salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states
"no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the
owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to
risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both
themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three
requirements must be meet: The vessel must be in peril, the services
must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual
obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.

I have a copy of Lloyds LOF aboard RedCloud, you never know when you
can become the owner of a ship.

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/shiplaw/fulltext/lof2000.pdf


Joe


Thank you.

--
jlrogers±³©

"jlrogers±³©" wrote in message
. ..
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

jlrogers±³© wrote:
When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

It's salvage when property or goods are saved from damage or
destruction.

It is stealing when you take something that does not belong to you,
like in Britian now. The stuff in the surf is Ligan, and belongs to the
owner of the ship. The vessel was not a derelict.

The guy who got a tractor out and walked with a dozen BMW's has to
report the salvage, and will get compensated for his efforts. The
amount will be decided by a judge. If he does not report the salvage he
is stealing.

There are two type of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage.
Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement
of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the
salvor is paid regardless regardless of whether the salvage is
successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged
without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is
made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage . In
this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim.
It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form
salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency
contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided
at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the
case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form
salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states
"no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the
owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to
risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both
themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three
requirements must be meet: The vessel must be in peril, the services
must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual
obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.

I have a copy of Lloyds LOF aboard RedCloud, you never know when you
can become the owner of a ship.

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/shiplaw/fulltext/lof2000.pdf



Actually, the Lloyds contract has some problems, especially for non-England
based issues.

BoatUS has one at http://www.boatus.com/towing/guide/salvage/contract.asp,
and they recommend refusing to sign a Lloyds contract.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Jan 23, 6:35 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"jlrogers±³©" wrote in gy.net...





"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

jlrogers±³© wrote:
When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

It's salvage when property or goods are saved from damage or
destruction.

It is stealing when you take something that does not belong to you,
like in Britian now. The stuff in the surf is Ligan, and belongs to the
owner of the ship. The vessel was not a derelict.

The guy who got a tractor out and walked with a dozen BMW's has to
report the salvage, and will get compensated for his efforts. The
amount will be decided by a judge. If he does not report the salvage he
is stealing.

There are two type of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage.
Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement
of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the
salvor is paid regardless regardless of whether the salvage is
successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged
without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is
made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage . In
this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim.
It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form
salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency
contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided
at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the
case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form
salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states
"no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the
owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to
risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both
themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three
requirements must be meet: The vessel must be in peril, the services
must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual
obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.

I have a copy of Lloyds LOF aboard RedCloud, you never know when you
can become the owner of a ship.

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/shiplaw/f...00.pdfActually, the Lloyds contract has some problems, especially for non-England
based issues.

BoatUS has one athttp://www.boatus.com/towing/guide/salvage/contract.asp,
and they recommend refusing to sign a Lloyds contract.

BoatUS is a big group of pussies dealing with ski boats and trailor
sailors Jon.

If you do not sign my contract and you have a loss of life, or
enviromental damage, or total loss of the vessel and cargo then who's
to blame?

Who will be charged with full clean-up?

Do you think your insurance company will pay off if you refuge
salvage?

Who will be sued for everything they have?

Once your in a situation to need salvors, you are lucky to have help,
and better agree to the salvors terms IMO. Don't like it, don't put
yourself in that situation.

Joe






--
"j" ganz - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Jan 23, 6:35 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"jlrogers±³©" wrote in
gy.net...





"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

jlrogers±³© wrote:
When is it salvage and when is it stealing?

--
jlrogers±³©

It's salvage when property or goods are saved from damage or
destruction.

It is stealing when you take something that does not belong to you,
like in Britian now. The stuff in the surf is Ligan, and belongs to the
owner of the ship. The vessel was not a derelict.

The guy who got a tractor out and walked with a dozen BMW's has to
report the salvage, and will get compensated for his efforts. The
amount will be decided by a judge. If he does not report the salvage he
is stealing.

There are two type of salvage, contract salvage and pure salvage.
Contract salvage occurs when a contract is made prior to commencement
of salvage operations, the amount of compensation is fixed and the
salvor is paid regardless regardless of whether the salvage is
successful or not. When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged
without prior agreement between the owner and salvor or an agreement is
made but not for a fixed amount, this is known as pure salvage . In
this case the salvor can legally claim recompense or a salvage claim.
It is also pure salvage when the ship's master signs an open form
salvage agreement with no fixed compensation. This is a contingency
contract that leaves the value of the salvage operation to be decided
at a later date and both parties agree to binding arbitration in the
case of a dispute. The best-known open form is the Lloyd's Open Form
salvage contract, which was developed by Lloyd's of London and states
"no cure - no pay". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the
owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to
risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both
themselves and the ship owner. In order for a claim to be awarded three
requirements must be meet: The vessel must be in peril, the services
must be rendered voluntarily, in other words there is no contractual
obligation, and finally the salvage must be successful.

I have a copy of Lloyds LOF aboard RedCloud, you never know when you
can become the owner of a ship.

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/shiplaw/f...00.pdfActually, the
Lloyds contract has some problems, especially for non-England
based issues.

BoatUS has one athttp://www.boatus.com/towing/guide/salvage/contract.asp,
and they recommend refusing to sign a Lloyds contract.

BoatUS is a big group of pussies dealing with ski boats and trailor
sailors Jon.

If you do not sign my contract and you have a loss of life, or
enviromental damage, or total loss of the vessel and cargo then who's
to blame?

Who will be charged with full clean-up?

Do you think your insurance company will pay off if you refuge
salvage?

Who will be sued for everything they have?

Once your in a situation to need salvors, you are lucky to have help,
and better agree to the salvors terms IMO. Don't like it, don't put
yourself in that situation.

Joe



In any case, the Lloyds contract isn't very good. The one I posted is
better, even if you don't think so. If you actually read the text at the
link, you'd look a lot less foolish.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Joe wrote:
BoatUS is a big group of pussies dealing with ski boats and trailor
sailors Jon.

If you do not sign my contract and you have a loss of life, or

Loss of life? Wouldn't you have a problem if you sailed away from a
situation where there was loss of life?

enviromental damage, or total loss of the vessel and cargo then who's
to blame?

Who will be charged with full clean-up?

Do you think your insurance company will pay off if you refuge
salvage?

Boat/US advises refusing the Lloyd's Contract.

Who will be sued for everything they have?

Once your in a situation to need salvors, you are lucky to have help,
and better agree to the salvors terms IMO. Don't like it, don't put
yourself in that situation.

The problem with a Lloyd's contract is that the arbitration must be
done in London under British laws, at the likely expense of the boat
owner. Any small boat salvor who requires it in the US is not to be
trusted.

On Jan 24, 7:06 am, Jeff wrote:
Wouldn't you have a problem if you sailed away from a
situation where there was loss of life?


Good question Jeff, I wondered the same. As a salvor on location it
would seem you would have to stay while there is any risk to life.
However if the boat vessel refuses help and you feel you are in risk by
staying, then I.m sure you have the right and duty to save your vessel
and crew.


The problem with a Lloyd's contract is that the arbitration must be
done in London under British laws, at the likely expense of the boat
owner. Any small boat salvor who requires it in the US is not to be
trusted.

I'm sure there are 100's of lawers that work for non-english companies
all the time. I also imagine Lloyds is fair, faster, and deals with
99.9 percent of the worlds salvor atributions.

The difference of our opinion's probly arise because we are thinking
on different levels.

First I've never pull a salvage contract on any persons personal boat,
unless it's big enough to needs Lloyds insurance, and is manned with
professional crew.

In the gulf I would look for cargo ships, tankers, containers,
crewboats, supplyboats, helo's, siesmic boats and cables, shrimpboats,
snapper boats, long liners, barges and such.

In 1983 we found a 2.5 miles long seismic cable. It was lost in a
storm by one of the Quest boats. I was an AB at the time. We spent 5
hrs flaking it on deck of the Point Barrow (225 ft supply boat) with a
tugger. My next paycheck had a 1,500 dollar bonus, the OS got 1000, the
mate got 3000, and the Capt got 6000.

We were all very pleased until we found out the company got 1.5
million for the cable.

Joe

"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Joe wrote:
BoatUS is a big group of pussies dealing with ski boats
and trailor
sailors Jon.

If you do not sign my contract and you have a loss of
life, or

Loss of life? Wouldn't you have a problem if you sailed
away from a
situation where there was loss of life?

if not now, later on.