"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Popeye" wrote

If in the instant before Hussien neck got snapped he accepted Jesus into
his heart he would go to heaven?

Yes.

If Hitler had accepted Jesus before the gasoline bath he would be in
heaven too?

Yes.

All one has to do is believe and have faith and it doesn't matter if
they kill, rape or pillage?

Yes.

Well, that does not seem to be a very good deal. You mean that if you spend
your life loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek etc. you are
still only on a par with omeone who has spent his life raping, pillaging and
coveting his neighbours wife etc.? Where is the incentive?

Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message

My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was
imposed upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of
pre-Christian Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to
the Christian movements, unless you happen to believe that raping,
pillaging, and homicide are moral activities.
Max
Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen...n_Christianity

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as omnipotent
and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led to
the Enlightenment.

Revisionist history, Popeye. But why argue this point with you--your mind
is made up. Funny, however, that no one ever heard much about this point of
view until the so-called "religious right" rose to power and influence in
the USA. Politics and religion seem to be inseparable of late.

Max



You cannot refute Aristotle's writings or his influence upon
Christianity. You can't refute his writings on morality predate
Christianity by hundreds of years.

Now you claim my assertion that Christianity led to the Dark Ages is
very recent revisionist history. Not so, but here is something recent:

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...f-theology.asp

Ever notice that virtually all artwork in the Dark Ages is religiously
themed?

Urban centers were controlled by cardinals?

Kings answered to Rome?

Almost all wars were religious based?

Literacy was the dominion of the church?

Science had to comply with religious dogma?

Christianity did not bring morality to the Dark Ages. The Magna Charta
was signed in 1215.

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian
of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that
the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a
pagan act and therefore vile." Worthy of sainthood?

Now why were they referred to as the "Dark Ages"?

Christianity flourished and rose during the Dark Ages. The human
condition declined.


Further along the timeline, why did all those Christians people suffer
great risk and flock to America? Did the Mayflower arrive on a sight
seeing tour? A good number of people left Europe to escape Christianity.

Northern Ireland - there are your good Christians! Moral and no pillaging!

Massachusetts burning witches and outlawing Christmas - there are your
good Christians!

Tammy Faye, Pat Robertson, all the TV stars - good Christians!

Rampant homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic Church - known
behaviors for decades - good Christians!

Morality exists independent of Christianity. Practitioners of
Christianity have tried to falsely claim a monopoly on morality.

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

Popeye

"Edgar" wrote...
Well, that does not seem to be a very good deal. You mean that if you spend
your life loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek etc. you are
still only on a par with omeone who has spent his life raping, pillaging and
coveting his neighbours wife etc.? Where is the incentive?

Incentive? Don't you understand no matter how well you live your life or try to live
your life it doesn't matter as far as your salvation's concerned. You can be a regular
Mother Teresa and still not have everlasting life if you deny Jesus. Good works can't
save your soul. Only Jesus can.
It's not the sinning God determines your fate by. It's the repentance and the acceptance
of Jesus. God expects people to sin. Nobody is sin-free. Degrees of sin aren't something
that matters to God. Slapping your wife and murdering your wife are both equal sins in
God's eyes.
It's God's loving and generous offer of salvation rejected that ****es him off enough to
say, "To hell with you!" (literally). Remember one thing then things will make better sense.
God created us in his own image. We are Gods ourselves, then. The difference is while
existing in the flesh we have a decision to make. That decision for those born after
Jesus died is to believe or not to believe Jesus (God). If we don't believe we're
denied the tree of life. Jesus is the new the tree of life denied everybody after
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and got their fig leave
covered butts kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Popeye" wrote
Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose. Religion applied to groups leads to
intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

"Thou shall not put any other Gods before me." --- God.
Organized religion often puts itself before God. That's where it goes wrong...
But, what's another word for organized religion? Organized people! People putting
themselves before God. False, deceiving, arrogant and corrupt people. God knows
them. They will get their just due...

Cheers,
Ellen

Cheers,
Ellen

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:11:30 -0500, Popeye wrote
(in article ):

Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Popeye" wrote in message

My point was only that the morality that you and Oz attribute to
'enlightenment' is the result of Judeo-Christian morality which was
imposed upon Europe and much of Asia. Take a look at the history of
pre-Christian Europe as evidence. Not much morality in evidence prior to
the Christian movements, unless you happen to believe that raping,
pillaging, and homicide are moral activities.
Max
Aristotle is pre-Christian isn't he?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/aris-eth.htm

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-responsibility/

But where does Christianity come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influen..._on_Christiani
ty

Did you catch the part of where the current concept of God as omnipotent
and all good came from?

If anything, the rise of Christianity led to the Dark Ages - a period of
raping, pillaging and homicide. It was the rise of secularism that led to
the Enlightenment.

Revisionist history, Popeye. But why argue this point with you--your mind
is made up. Funny, however, that no one ever heard much about this point
of
view until the so-called "religious right" rose to power and influence in
the USA. Politics and religion seem to be inseparable of late.

Max



You cannot refute Aristotle's writings or his influence upon
Christianity. You can't refute his writings on morality predate
Christianity by hundreds of years.

Now you claim my assertion that Christianity led to the Dark Ages is
very recent revisionist history. Not so, but here is something recent:


http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...er/tragedy-of-
theology.asp

Ever notice that virtually all artwork in the Dark Ages is religiously
themed?

Urban centers were controlled by cardinals?

Kings answered to Rome?

Almost all wars were religious based?

Literacy was the dominion of the church?

Science had to comply with religious dogma?

Christianity did not bring morality to the Dark Ages. The Magna Charta
was signed in 1215.

Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian
of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that
the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a
pagan act and therefore vile." Worthy of sainthood?

Now why were they referred to as the "Dark Ages"?

Christianity flourished and rose during the Dark Ages. The human
condition declined.


Further along the timeline, why did all those Christians people suffer
great risk and flock to America? Did the Mayflower arrive on a sight
seeing tour? A good number of people left Europe to escape Christianity.

Northern Ireland - there are your good Christians! Moral and no pillaging!

Massachusetts burning witches and outlawing Christmas - there are your
good Christians!

Tammy Faye, Pat Robertson, all the TV stars - good Christians!

Rampant homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic Church - known
behaviors for decades - good Christians!

Morality exists independent of Christianity. Practitioners of
Christianity have tried to falsely claim a monopoly on morality.

Religion has some value when used by an individual for his own purpose.
Religion applied to groups leads to intolerance, manipulation and worse.
Organized religion is the tool of con men. History shows this repeatedly.

Popeye












HOY HOY

--
Mundo, The Captain who is a bully and an ass

"Mundo" wrote in message



It's not a choice. You either have it or you don't. I Like
being Gay.


You sure fooled me.

Scotty

Nellen,

Your answer about Saddam and heaven brings a need in my mind for an
answer to the question; Where is Heaven's location? Is it a phyical
location? Is that where God's throne is located? Is there a right hand
side of God's throne?

Is it just a creation man? Is God just a creation of man? Is Hell a
man's creation? Purgatory? Saints?

Does it matter?

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ILLDRINKTOTHAT

"Thou shall not put any other Gods before me." --- God.

There is only one God whether you call Him/Her?It God, Shiva, Allah,
Jehovah, or Jimmy Crack Corn....we just all see GGod differently....

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and got
their fig leave
covered butts kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

So they were a bit slow on the draw, repentancewise?

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
Organized people! People putting
themselves before God. False, deceiving, arrogant and corrupt people. God
knows
them. They will get their just due...

Not if they see their end coming and get the words out quickly enough,
according to you...