Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Get with the program Injun Ear! Any competent sailor who stores charts stores them flat.

Not necessarily. Unless you think that U.S. Navy navigators are
incompetent.


Any real voyaging or cruising sailboat has a chart locker where you can store about a foot deep
of charts flat and unfolded. Rolling them up is stupid. It makes them about impossible to use.

Not if you re-roll them every 2 or 3 months, as I said in my original
post. If you leave them rolled up for a few years, then yeah, they're
difficult (but not impossible).



Actually, paper charts are stupid anymore.

Really?

You can get free electronic charts from the WEB and
they are the most up to datest you can get at the time.

Are you sure? Have you checked charts available for download against
the most recent N2Ms?

If you really demand paper charts then print
them on your printer from the e-chart.


And I guess a "real voyaging or cruising sailboat" will have a table
sized color printer on board... and a large supply of waterproof ink,
too

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

wrote:
Capt.American wrote:
Sounds good for whiping your ass Tonto.


You couldn't whip a bowl of milk


My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,

Wow! Lines on paper!

Not just lines Tonto, a geographic (earth-mapping) coordinate system
expresses every horizontal position on Earth by two of the three
coordinates of a spherical coordinate system which is aligned with the
spin axis of the Earth. It defines two angles measured from the center
of the Earth:*the latitude measures the angle between any point and the
equator*the longitude measures the angle along the equator from an
arbitrary point on the

Earth soundings in fathoms,

Why do you need to know how deep the water in the middle of th eocean
is? Are you really at risk of running aground there? Gonna drop anchor?

Might wan't to catch a fish in the Mariana's trench, you can also cross
refference your position with known water depths. Also handy knowledge
in reef skewn areas.


..... loran lines, lease blocks, compass
rose, loran linear interpolator, variation factors, pollution reports,

Anywhere your boat is

ship wrecks, conversion tables, explosive dumping areas, submarine
operation areas

The whole ocean is a "submarine operating area."

Listen Chief, some areas are restricted submarine training areas, you
will find these areas around islands in the oceans like Guam, and
similar Naval bases. Unless you wan't to be on bottom of the ocean like
a Japanese whaling school for retards, I suggest you avoid these areas.



.... reefs, islands, atolls

Now there you have something... OTOH if it has a shoreline, it's not
the "middle of the ocean" any more, is it?

Yes it is.

Is Hawaii in the Pacific ocean? How's about Midway? An ocean is just a
large body of water constituting a principal part of the hydrosphere.
Unless you are on a bordering continent then you can be near mid ocean
as see a shore.

I suggest you study Captain Neals basic Nautical terms.
He defines "islands" and land surrounded by water.

You play the dumb injun with perfect realism.

Capt. American





-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,

Wow! Lines on paper!

Capt.American wrote:
Not just lines Tonto, a geographic (earth-mapping) coordinate system
expresses every horizontal position on Earth by two of the three
coordinates of a spherical coordinate system which is aligned with the
spin axis of the Earth. It defines two angles measured from the center
of the Earth:*the latitude measures the angle between any point and the
equator*the longitude measures the angle along the equator from an
arbitrary point on the

Earth

Very impressive. Who sold you these mid-ocean charts, paleface?
Ever heard of a plotting sheet?




The whole ocean is a "submarine operating area."

Listen Chief, some areas are restricted submarine training areas, you
will find these areas around islands in the oceans like Guam, and
similar Naval bases. Unless you wan't to be on bottom of the ocean like
a Japanese whaling school for retards, I suggest you avoid these areas.


You will also find restricted areas in the coast pilot for that area.



I suggest you study Captain Neals basic Nautical terms.
He defines "islands" and land surrounded by water.


Ah yes, let's all learn from the Crapton®. A veritable Picasso among
bull**** artists.


You play the dumb injun with perfect realism.


How. Ugh.

Me not spend wampum on blank charts showing lines in middle of ocean.
Glad me not smart like you.

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

wrote
Are you sure? Have you checked charts available for download against
the most recent N2Ms?

I haven't a clue what a N2M is but I do know the paper charts you can buy, the latest versions,
are printed from the same electronic charts that are available free on the Internet. Here's the link:
http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/staff/charts.htm

"NOAA's Raster Navigational Chart (NOAA RNCT) is a georeferenced, digital image of a paper chart which can be used in a
raster chart system. The NOAA RNCT files are available for free download via the internet at:
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/download.htm"

And I guess a "real voyaging or cruising sailboat" will have a table
sized color printer on board... and a large supply of waterproof ink,
too

That would be nice if you wanted full-sized charts on demand But, you can use a standard printer and
regular paper. You can always tape sheets together to make a big chart if that's what you really want. And
who needs waterproof ink. Your chart table and chart storage should both be dry.


Cheers,
Ellen

Edgar wrote:
Capt. American's reply does raise another interesting issue.
Like I implied in my last post, I do have paper charts for everywhere I go
but I also have a chart plotter aboard and the memory chip for this cost me
the equivalent of $330. Now where I sail in Oslo fjord this remains useful
because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of islands and small rocks
which do not change and there are hardly any navigational buoys and no
sandbanks at all so the chip on the plotter is still a useful guide and I
only bought it last year anyway. But how often is someone who has bought
one of these expensive chips going to get an updated one?

About every 10 years or so, according to Jeff

Paper charts are not cheap but you can afford to update/replace them as
necessary, so IMO they are not outdated technology until chart plotter chips
come down to reasonable figures

Is a hammer outdated? No tool is ever obsolete in the hands of a man
who has the skill to use it.

The chips *should* be cheaper than paper chart books, given the
realities of electronic manufacturing. I would like to try using raster
charts with the ability to add my own updates & annotations.

One thing to bear in mind, time spent poring over a paper chart,
updating it by hand, it time invested in learning the area & the nav
aids & local hazards. That is something that no electronic gizmo can
give you.

On another note, I have recently downloaded a lot of charts navigation
free-ware. After a few hours looking them over, I have found Maptech's
"Chart Navigator" to be pretty good (haven't tried plugging it into a
GPS) and another program called "Global Mapper" to be handy for
overlaying charts to cover large areas. I have used "Sea Clear" too but
have not gotten the knack of it as quickly.

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

wrote:
My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,

Wow! Lines on paper!

Capt.American wrote:
Not just lines Tonto, a geographic (earth-mapping) coordinate system
expresses every horizontal position on Earth by two of the three
coordinates of a spherical coordinate system which is aligned with the
spin axis of the Earth. It defines two angles measured from the center
of the Earth:*the latitude measures the angle between any point and the
equator*the longitude measures the angle along the equator from an
arbitrary point on the

Earth

Very impressive. Who sold you these mid-ocean charts, paleface?

Most were given to me, many were collected from various derlicts, and
a few came from Baker & Lynch.


Ever heard of a plotting sheet?

Sure, you take the information from a plotting sheet and put it on a
chart. BTW Tonto a plotting sheet is not a blank sheet of paper either.

http://www.efalk.org/Navigation/plot1.html


The whole ocean is a "submarine operating area."

Listen Chief, some areas are restricted submarine training areas, you
will find these areas around islands in the oceans like Guam, and
similar Naval bases. Unless you wan't to be on bottom of the ocean like
a Japanese whaling school for retards, I suggest you avoid these areas.


You will also find restricted areas in the coast pilot for that area.

That's the first smoke signal you puffed worth reading.

Capt. American

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

Its nice if you can store them flat,but its a luxury not many of us can
afford. If you have a full size chart table on your vessel its not too hard
to build a full size storage space underneath and hinge the table top so you
can lift it up to find charts. Storing them this way actually takes less
space than storing them rolled up in my opinion, but you do need to take
care. you want a good seal around the bottom of the table to prevent water
from getting in, and you need to take care when looking through your charts
not to rip them. This system can take a bit longer to find the chart you
need, especially if you have a lot of charts. There are lots of ways of
organising them to make life easier though

You can sort the charts out into blocks of continents (if your lucky to have
that many charts! then sort them by chart number. Its pretty easy to keep
things in order this way, and you can always keep the two or three charts
you are currently using on the top then put them back later. You can put a
bit of tape on the side of the chart with a number on it to help find them
(some books are indexed this way).

Old charts can still be used so long as they are accurate. Keeping them up
to date with all the notices to mariners can be a full time occupation in
itself if you have a lot of charts, but its rewarding work. You can
download the notices to mariners digitally now, or if you have time, you can
go to your local maritime office and sit there in luxury with a cup of
coffee and update your charts there.

Shaun

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or completely
unfamiliar... area?

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

''lease blocks'' ?




"Capt.American" wrote in message
ups.com...

My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,
shipping lanes,
currents, soundings in fathoms, loran lines, lease blocks,
compass
rose, loran linear interpolator, variation factors,
pollution reports,
ship wrecks, conversion tables, explosive dumping areas,
submarine
operation areas, radio range info, reefs, islands, atolls,
bottom info,
ect..ect..ect and thats the simple charts, not the pilot
chart which
have average currents, wind, and information beyond your
simple
understanding of charts.

After reading the responce you provided I suggest you
hang your charts
on the wall and marvel at all the information you have no
clue existed.
What a putz you are you deserve a chart that rolls up when
you try to
use it. Go buy software with a chart plotter GPS
interface.
Surely you can push a few buttons right?


Ever heard the phrase "off soundings"?


I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use.

What does traffic have to do with the chart?

High traffic areas have marked channels, dredging, bouys
dragged off
location, ranges, light list, designated anchorage areas,
ect.. and
lots of mariners that submit reports for an up to date
Local Notice to
Mariners. Charts in high traffic areas are in general more
up to date
and critical to safe navigation.

In an area like a secluded cove or harbor with no traffic
and no aids
to navigation and older chart showing depths, currents,
bottom info is
all that is needed to safely navigate.

Hope this helps.

Capt. American

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

''lights change characteristics''

how so?

Scotty



"Edgar" wrote in message
...

wrote in message

oups.com..
..

How do you all keep your charts? How old a chart would
you consider
using when visiting a relatively unfmiliar... or
completely
unfamiliar... area?

I would not use an old chart at all in an unfamiliar area.
Sandbanks move,
buoys are shifted, wrecks appear, lights change
characteristics, etc etc.
Forget old charts for navigation. Frame them and hang them
on the wall if
you like. But on your boat have new charts or ones that
have been regularly
updated from 'Notices to Mariners' (or your local
equivlent) either by
yourself or by returning your charts to a chart agent for
correction up to
date.
Apart from being a danger to yourself and others your
insurance may be
deemed invalid on grounds that you were negligent if you
knowingly go to sea
with out-of-date charts.

Scotty wrote:
''lease blocks'' ?


In 1982 Congress passed the Federal Oil and Gas Royalty Management Act
to ensure that all Federal lands in the offshore have proper accounting
and enforcement mechanisms. This included a comprehensive system for
determining, collecting and auditing all fees and payments for offshore
leases in addition to conducting inspections and enforcing penalties.
The increased responsibilities led the Secretary of the Interior to
create the MMS within the Department to administer all responsibilities
relating to natural gas and oil production on the OCS. They range from
the scheduling of sales and the leasing of
Energy Information Administration, Office of Oil and Gas, September
2005 8
OCS tracts to approval and oversight of offshore operations and the
conduct of environmental studies. Today the MMS collects and disperses
billions of dollars in revenue from the sale of mineral leases.
Offshore leases brought in revenues of $5.2 billion in 2000. This
represents 73.1 percent of the $7.1 billion in revenues collected from
all Federal and American Indian mineral leases that year.

The MMS sectioned off most offshore seabottom land into lease blocks.
If you ever sail up to any offshore oil platform you will see a sign on
two corners that tell the name of the area and the block number, this
is the area leased to an oil company by the MMS.

You can purchace block charts from any chart dealer. They are great
for fishing and a rock solid way to double check your position in any
area that has offshore mineral exploration.

Capt. American






"Capt.American" wrote in message
ups.com...

My charts have lat and lon in hours, min and seconds,
shipping lanes,
currents, soundings in fathoms, loran lines, lease blocks,
compass
rose, loran linear interpolator, variation factors,
pollution reports,
ship wrecks, conversion tables, explosive dumping areas,
submarine
operation areas, radio range info, reefs, islands, atolls,
bottom info,
ect..ect..ect and thats the simple charts, not the pilot
chart which
have average currents, wind, and information beyond your
simple
understanding of charts.

After reading the responce you provided I suggest you
hang your charts
on the wall and marvel at all the information you have no
clue existed.
What a putz you are you deserve a chart that rolls up when
you try to
use it. Go buy software with a chart plotter GPS
interface.
Surely you can push a few buttons right?


Ever heard the phrase "off soundings"?


I would agree in a port with major traffic, an up
to date chart is the one to use.

What does traffic have to do with the chart?

High traffic areas have marked channels, dredging, bouys
dragged off
location, ranges, light list, designated anchorage areas,
ect.. and
lots of mariners that submit reports for an up to date
Local Notice to
Mariners. Charts in high traffic areas are in general more
up to date
and critical to safe navigation.

In an area like a secluded cove or harbor with no traffic
and no aids
to navigation and older chart showing depths, currents,
bottom info is
all that is needed to safely navigate.

Hope this helps.

Capt. American

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)