"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be
sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing
near the back of the pack.

First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really
don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as
"high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the
scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch
to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy."

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700
respectively, with about the same sail area.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon
after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered
"high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in
the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never
capsized one, however.

On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in
stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would do
gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How else to
you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't flip a few
times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie 16's, I never
raced but had access to a one at a club and generally took out
recreational sailors with no high performance or racing experience to give
them a little thrill. The dock crew would always joke about warming up
the crash boat.

Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must*
be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've
never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them
extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or
so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats.
In fact, I can remember races when every boat went down! Of course, the
better skippers flipped less often than novices, but during practices it
was no big deal. (And college racers don't use chutes.)

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing
is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept
in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at
the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not
uncommon at the college level.


And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when it
counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of times
while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few sleeping bags and
a pack under the bow and head off to the islands! Capsizing in this
situation wold not have been a good idea.

No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.
Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be
sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing
near the back of the pack.
First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really
don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as
"high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the
scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch
to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy."

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's
Hole and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for
strong current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge.
Our return was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots,
until the owner realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and
had a long slog back upwind! But we didn't capsize.


505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700
respectively, with about the same sail area.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never
seen a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was
a lightweight.


Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon
after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered
"high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in
the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never
capsized one, however.

Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge.


Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must*
be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've
never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them
extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme
conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it
wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I
allowed too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole!

Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod
Mercury's) and had never capsized.



Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or
so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats.
....

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing
is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept
in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at
the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not
uncommon at the college level.

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's,
Finns, 420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to
Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?


... Capsizing in this
situation wold not have been a good idea.

No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Maxprop wrote:

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign
as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole
and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for strong
current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge. Our return
was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots, until the owner
realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and had a long slog back
upwind! But we didn't capsize.

Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for
a child. And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of
anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio
in anything under a gale and monster waves.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never seen
a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was a
lightweight.

I love to singlehand Hobie 16s from the wire in about 10kts. It's fun and
fast.

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti
in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've
never capsized one, however.

Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge.

No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very
experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing
reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out.


Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard
*must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water.
But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced
them extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme
conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it
wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I allowed
too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole!

No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that
boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to
correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return.

Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's)
and had never capsized.

I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance.
Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing
Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake, with a Lightning not far
behind. And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike
those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into
flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you
really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit
to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the
transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470.

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of
racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly
experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that
description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of
sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level.

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?

I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic. I was
simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a
high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or
Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is
an FJ, by the way.


No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their
wake as well. You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your
faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do
give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't
cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind
conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big
seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better
chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water.

Max

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?

Maxprop wrote:
I didn't. I never said they were--

Let's review.
The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance
dinghies, occasional capsizing is part of the process. You "took issue"
with that, and listed a lot of dinghies that you'd sailed for years
without a single capsize as though holding yourself up as an example.
Now you claim that the dinghies you listed were not intended to
represent "high performance" classes.... which of course leaves the
question, WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just
wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies?

BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are
that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains
why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of
the pack.


And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their
wake as well.

Excuse me while I go clean the coffee off my keyboard.

You're a stitch, Max. Apparently clueless, but good for a million
laughs. Thanks!

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)
(who also has sailed rings around Flying Scots in a 470 in all kinds of
conditions)

wrote in message

Let's review.
The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance
dinghies, occasional capsizing is part of the process. You "took issue"
with that, and listed a lot of dinghies that you'd sailed for years
without a single capsize as though holding yourself up as an example.
Now you claim that the dinghies you listed were not intended to
represent "high performance" classes.... which of course leaves the
question, WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just
wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies?

Really just peferring to irritate bloviating fools like yourself. Without
Bubbles around this NG has become interminably boring. You aren't helping
much, but you are making an effort, if paltry.

BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are
that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains
why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of
the pack.

The Laser isn't a good example, but perhaps it has more to do with the
ability to keep the boat upright by quick reactions and athletic ability.
I've capsized a Laser twice while racing--once in a drifter, having gotten
slap-happy and sloppy in the heat and sun and roll-tacking repeatedly just
for something to do. The other time was after I got cut off by another boat
with no rights at the mark. I chose to capsize rather than collide with
another competitor--my boat was brand new. In both cases I was back aboard
and sailing within 30 seconds. My reference to DNF was directed more toward
Lightnings and Thistles. They can be self-rescued, but you'll be trailing
the pack unless you were far ahead to begin with. A Thistle takes about 15
minutes to self-bail with two Elvstrom Supermax bailers. Until then you'll
be sailing an 800-to-1200 lb. Thistle.

And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in
their
wake as well.

Excuse me while I go clean the coffee off my keyboard.

You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air. We were clocked
at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon. I have
yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed, but then I have no time at all
racing them. I do have lots of time sailing them, especially on the wire as
crew, but we never came close to 10kts. boat speed.


You're a stitch, Max. Apparently clueless, but good for a million
laughs. Thanks!

You're most welcome. Sadly you aren't good for even a half-hearted chuckle.


-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)
(who also has sailed rings around Flying Scots in a 470 in all kinds of
conditions)

Well, that's *slightly* funny, if inaccurate. If you'd actually sailed
rings around Flying Scots in "all kinds of conditions," the conditions where
you sail are, um, limited.

Max

The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance
...WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just
wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies?

Maxprop wrote:
Really just peferring to irritate bloviating fools like yourself.

Do tell.
You're the one stuck in an unsupportable position, which you got
yourself into... I suggest you start accusing other people of
ad-hominem attacks....



BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are
that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains
why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of
the pack.


The Laser isn't a good example, but perhaps it has more to do with the
ability to keep the boat upright by quick reactions and athletic ability.

Which also go a long way towards being able to pull the boat upright &
get back in the sadlle quickly, too.


I've capsized a Laser twice while racing--once in a drifter, having gotten
slap-happy and sloppy in the heat and sun and roll-tacking repeatedly just
for something to do. The other time was after I got cut off by another boat
with no rights at the mark. I chose to capsize rather than collide with
another competitor--my boat was brand new. In both cases I was back aboard
and sailing within 30 seconds. My reference to DNF was directed more toward
Lightnings and Thistles. They can be self-rescued, but you'll be trailing
the pack unless you were far ahead to begin with. A Thistle takes about 15
minutes to self-bail with two Elvstrom Supermax bailers. Until then you'll
be sailing an 800-to-1200 lb. Thistle.


To some extent, it depends.... but it also shows (to me, anyway) the
unwisdom of sailing a non-updated 60 year old design. The only reason
at all why Thistles and Lightnings (or for that matter, Flying Scots)
can't be better at self-rescuing is the dinosaurs running the class
associations.



You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air.

Depends on what you call "heavy air." I've sailed thim in 25 knot winds
and 5 foot waves.

We were clocked
at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon.


WOW!!!

...I have
yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed,

Really? I have.... many many many times.

... I do have lots of time sailing them, especially on the wire as
crew, but we never came close to 10kts. boat speed.


Let me put it this way... didn't you claim to have "busted" a spinnaker
on a 470? Sounds very doubtful to me, since light boats with little
spinnakers don't generally do this unless the spinnaker was a worn-out
rag to start with. Now you claim that in sail-busting conditions, the
boat didn't hit ten knots... I can only guess that you were either
dragging a bucket or two (which would contribute to loading up the
sail) or you're completely & totally full of malarkey.

Well, that's *slightly* funny, if inaccurate. If you'd actually sailed
rings around Flying Scots in "all kinds of conditions," the conditions where
you sail are, um, limited.


Well, sure. I never raced a 470 against a FS in a hurricane in
mid-ocean, for example. But nobody else has either, so I don't feel
bad. Pretty much got every other combination covered though.

Spent a number of years racing 470s at clubs all over the eastern U.S.
back in the day when there was a class of them. Many (perhaps most) of
the same clubs had a lot of self-puffed Flying Scot sailors who were
convinced their boat was faster too.... of couorse, the fact that the
slowest 470 often lapped the fastest Flying Scot seemed to escape their
notice, which is the best way to maintain such illusions.

Gives "Don't Look, Don't Tell" a new implication.

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)

PS: Lightnings often lap Flying Scots too.

Maxprop wrote:
You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air.

For what, to measure the tremendous stern wave they pull?

.... We were clocked
at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon. I have
yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed

Easily cured

FFwd thru the first minute, then watch these guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QHahNUahs

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)
(thanks to Sailing Anarchist EST for the video link)

I don't think I can add much to FJ's comments, but that won't stop me ...


Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Maxprop wrote:

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)
Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign
as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse.


So you're presenting your "racing resume" as proof of your deep
experience, as in: "I race a old Alberg keel boat, so I know all about
high performance dinghies." Thanks, now we understand where you're
coming from.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole
....

Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for
a child.

Why not cruise it? It's the boat we had at the time. You seem to
have a lot of rules. Actually, this particular "cruise" was a long
one day daysail, though it was also used for overnighters. Shortly
after that I did a number of long weekend "cruises" in an open
daysailer (CC Mercury) accompanied by a Lark (slightly bigger than a
420). Are you saying I should have waited until I had a "proper"
cruising boat?

And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of
anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio
in anything under a gale and monster waves.

Hey, you're the one who brought it up! I'm quite happy to leave the
Ensign out of discussions of performance dinks.

....
Then you never sailed one [470] in extreme conditions, close to the edge.

No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very
experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing
reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out.

And I'm sure he *never* has capsized in his life. Sure, Max, tell us
another one.

And elsewhere you claim you never came close 10 knots in a 470. If
you had a 7 mile spinnaker "screaming, planing reach" in 25 gusting 35
and didn't hit 10 knots, you had a serious problem. Your story is
getting mighty shaky here. Are you sure that wasn't really a dream?


....
No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that
boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to
correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return.

So that's your secret! You never actually go out when there's a risk.


Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's)
and had never capsized.

I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance.
Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing
Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake,

In lighter winds, the Thistle is faster; in fact, the Thistle is
impressive (compared to other boats) in a Force 1. However, in a
strong breeze, the 470 has the edge. And a 505 would walk away from
both in any condition beyond a drifter.

with a Lightning not far
behind.

Well, a Lightning is 19 feet so it might even have the edge on the 14
foot 470 upwind. But certainly not off the wind.

And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike
those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into
flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you
really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit
to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the
transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470.

In other words, the 505 and 470 were designed to accommodate easy
recovery from a capsize. I wonder why that is? The Thistle, on the
other hand, probably comes up with a few hundred gallons - hardly
incentive to push the boat to its limits.

And you seem to be playing both sides of this, at one time claiming
you never capsized a Thistle, but then bragging about the athleticism
required to avoid flipping. Claiming no one flips a 505, then
pointing out the wide decks and stern flaps, specifically designed in
to facilitate recovery.



I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of
racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly
experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that
description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of
sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level.
Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?

I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic.

You're a real funny guy. Let me paraphrase your claim: "I've sailed
an Ensign so I know your claim that flipping 505's is common is
bogus." Sure thing, Max. I'm the one who is "illogical."

I was
simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a
high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or
Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is
an FJ, by the way.

Clearly, the Finn is dated, but its still pretty fast compared to
other singlehanded dinks. Actually the Finn held the speed record for
small boats for a number of years. Also the FJ isn't in the same
class as the 505, but its a lot closer in design to them then to the
Ensign!



No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.
Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their
wake as well.

You might have a case with the FD, a truly fast boat, but the Flying
Scot would have trouble keeping a 470 in sight. It would even have
trouble keeping a Lightning in sight. And the 505, which I was using
as my "benchmark" high performance boat of 30 years ago, would leave
them all (except maybe the FD) in the dust.

You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your
faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do
give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't
cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind
conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big
seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better
chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that
you'd rather sail the 505 because its faster, more fun, and easier to
recover from a capsize? I'll agree on all counts.

Remember, the actual issue here is whether it OK to flip a real high
performance boat in a non-racing, controlled environment as seen in
the video of the Spitfires. These boats are probably 25% faster than
any of the boats we've discussed, and were being sailed in a protected
harbor with a chase boat. Further, these boats were specifically
designed as trainers for young, lightweight sailors who are too small
to hold down a Tornado. It takes real stick-in-the-mud to say "I
sailed for 20 years and never did that."