"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping
then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who
has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis.
I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping.
And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to
the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?

Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing
so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the
back of the pack.

Max

Jeeez... when I was a kid we used to deliberately turtle the dinghies
despite being told not to do it. They would be po'd, because we kept coming
back with mud on the masthead. It was a nice mountain lake, and I think they
were concerned we'd break the boats on the stumps on the lake bed.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?
Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see
some of those
people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and
the bow still
sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should
re-design the hull so
it has more reserve buoyancy at the front.
Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to
the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack.

First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I
really don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows
count as "high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of
times (except the scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's
more than a stretch to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high
performance dinghy." 505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and
lightning weigh in at 515 and 700 respectively, with about the same
sail area.

Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty
soon after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was
considered "high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in
stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would
do gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How
else to you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't
flip a few times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie
16's, I never raced but had access to a one at a club and generally
took out recreational sailors with no high performance or racing
experience to give them a little thrill. The dock crew would always
joke about warming up the crash boat.

Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen
years or so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in
certain boats. In fact, I can remember races when every boat went
down! Of course, the better skippers flipped less often than novices,
but during practices it was no big deal. (And college racers don't
use chutes.)

And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when
it counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of
times while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few
sleeping bags and a pack under the bow and head off to the islands!
Capsizing in this situation wold not have been a good idea.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.

Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be
sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing
near the back of the pack.

First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really
don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as
"high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the
scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch
to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy."

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700
respectively, with about the same sail area.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon
after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered
"high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in
the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never
capsized one, however.

On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in
stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would do
gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How else to
you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't flip a few
times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie 16's, I never
raced but had access to a one at a club and generally took out
recreational sailors with no high performance or racing experience to give
them a little thrill. The dock crew would always joke about warming up
the crash boat.

Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must*
be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've
never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them
extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or
so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats.
In fact, I can remember races when every boat went down! Of course, the
better skippers flipped less often than novices, but during practices it
was no big deal. (And college racers don't use chutes.)

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing
is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept
in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at
the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not
uncommon at the college level.


And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when it
counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of times
while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few sleeping bags and
a pack under the bow and head off to the islands! Capsizing in this
situation wold not have been a good idea.

No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has
sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not
sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing
dinks like a 505 was just as common.
Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without
ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only
two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when
racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is
essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be
sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing
near the back of the pack.
First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really
don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as
"high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the
scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch
to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy."

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's
Hole and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for
strong current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge.
Our return was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots,
until the owner realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and
had a long slog back upwind! But we didn't capsize.


505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700
respectively, with about the same sail area.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never
seen a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was
a lightweight.


Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In
fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon
after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered
"high performance" at the time (470's, 505's).

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in
the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never
capsized one, however.

Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge.


Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must*
be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've
never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them
extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme
conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it
wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I
allowed too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole!

Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod
Mercury's) and had never capsized.



Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or
so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats.
....

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing
is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept
in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at
the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not
uncommon at the college level.

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's,
Finns, 420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to
Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?


... Capsizing in this
situation wold not have been a good idea.

No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

"Jeff" wrote in message
news
Maxprop wrote:

You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example.
:-)

Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me.

I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign
as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse.

I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me
to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole
and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for strong
current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge. Our return
was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots, until the owner
realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and had a long slog back
upwind! But we didn't capsize.

Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for
a child. And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of
anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio
in anything under a gale and monster waves.

You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can
bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat
upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire.

As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never seen
a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was a
lightweight.

I love to singlehand Hobie 16s from the wire in about 10kts. It's fun and
fast.

I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti
in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've
never capsized one, however.

Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge.

No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very
experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing
reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out.


Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard
*must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water.
But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced
them extensively--just a few times at the local level.

Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme
conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it
wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I allowed
too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole!

No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that
boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to
correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return.

Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's)
and had never capsized.

I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance.
Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing
Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake, with a Lightning not far
behind. And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike
those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into
flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you
really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit
to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the
transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470.

I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of
racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly
experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that
description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of
sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level.

Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies?

I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic. I was
simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a
high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or
Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is
an FJ, by the way.


No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance.

Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all
hang out.

Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And
I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their
wake as well. You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your
faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do
give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't
cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind
conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big
seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better
chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water.

Max

Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed
high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I
ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks
like a 505 was just as common.

Maxprop wrote:
Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes,
Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever
flipping one, I take issue with your contention.

I take issue with your taking issue.

For one thing, none of the boats you mention are "high performance."
The Snipe and the Lightning are designs from the 1930s for pete's sake!
Scows and Hobie 16s are sort of performance boats but only from the
standpoint of being compared to old kludgy boats.... scows were
originated as a type in the 1890s and have not really made any greater
strides than conventional boats since then... less so IMHO.

Ensigns?!???!? Fun to sail but hardly "performance". And they do
capsize, just try broaching one with a chute up in 20+ knot winds.

For another thing, any time you are learning & practicing a new
technique... such as windward heel on a Laser... then you are liable to
blow it and capsize. The only way to avoid this is to never learn to
power up the boat or try new techniques. If you never flipped learning
to roll-gybe, then you have never learned to roll-gybe.


... I can recall only two
capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing
solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a
DNF in most boats.

Damn sure not in a Laser unless you're a fat old duffer. Heck I've
flipped twice on the first leg in a Laser and still finished in the
hunt.

-signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye)