"Walt" wrote in message

With the right exemptions, it can be. Say, a flat X percent with the
first Y dollars exempt. By adjusting X and Y one can make it as
progressive or regressive as you want.

How, then, would that be a "flat tax?"

Max

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
I was fired from a summer job because I
refused to join the union in a union shop. The monthly dues amounted to
about half my meager pay. I couldn't afford it.

Just what union was that, the Mob perhaps?

Perhaps it never occurred to you that my wages were meager? And that the
union dues were based upon substantially higher wage levels? It was a
summer job between years in high school, after all.

Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

I am not sure about the requirement to join a union to work. It's a mixed
bag of protection and obligation. I've seen, as I said, both sides of it.

Closed and union shops are not uncommon. One hears much complaining about
them, but such complaints fall on deaf union boss ears.

Not at all unlike strong-arm management tactics, right? The unfortunate
workers takes it in the ass, despite who's doing the screwing.

Max

"Gilligan" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:05 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:29:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news:flldn2lbfsnk32pqoha1e8f5b2097bqpps@4ax. com...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:15:11 -0800, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

That's a tougher question. I was part of union, and I was required
to
join
for a summer job. There were dues, but the benefits and the pay were
pretty
good, considering I was in high school and had minimal experience. I
had
an
accident at work while driving a forklift... damaged a lot of
expensive
equipment through no fault of my own except inexperience. If I had
not
been
a member of the union, I would have been fired for sure. I was
slightly
injured and had to take off a couple of weeks. The salaried
supervisor
asked
me one time what happened. The union steward was present, and he
stopped
him
when he started to get mean (I'm sure his job was on the line). I
was
given
an opportunity to make a statement, and briefly mentioned my lack of
experience. When I returned to work, the supervisor found someone to
train
me, so that it wouldn't happen again.

In another situation, I was a staff employee in a union shop
(defense
contractor). The union was pretty strict about members not doing
anything
beyond their job description, but tended to look the other way if
you
had
a
good relationship with the employee/staff member. We had a situation
of
another supervisor telling his subordinates (me included) that we
shouldn't
fraternize with union people... exchange pleasantries and the
like... I
think he was on a power trip. When this became obvious to a union
member,
he
basically walked off the job along with the other members in the
shop
until
the "rule" was rescinded.

Very difficult to believe, Jon. Considered a wildcat strike, an
unfair labor practice, and no Union that I know of would allow that
to happen. Could be held liable for any damages to the company over
the issue. If there is nothing written in the contract about the
right to fraternize then you cannot "strike" over any aspect of the
issue. If there is something in the contract about it, you would
have
to go through the grievance procedure.

Frank


It lasted about 1/2 hour. Everyone was satisfied with the result.
Can't
help
it if you have difficulty believing it.


Management was satisfied to accept the cost of a half hour disruption
and shutdown of their operation with an illegal wildcat strike? No I
don't believe that.

Management should have filed an unfair labor practice complaint with
the NLRB, and if they did not, it is very difficult to believe. The
Union cannot endorse a "strike" over any issue, grievable or not,
that is why there is a contract.

Frank


Why do I care what you believe again?

I have no idea.

I think you do. :-)


You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Quite a bit.

Frank

You haven't demonstrated that...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




I've finally figured it out Jon. You're the best troll here. All this time
I thought you were off your rocker, but your simply trolling the daylights
out of everyone.

You're an order of magnitude better than RB. My hat's off to you!
Spectacular job!



I apologize.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:54:03 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:05 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:29:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:15:11 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

That's a tougher question. I was part of union, and I was required to
join
for a summer job. There were dues, but the benefits and the pay were
pretty
good, considering I was in high school and had minimal experience. I
had
an
accident at work while driving a forklift... damaged a lot of
expensive
equipment through no fault of my own except inexperience. If I had not
been
a member of the union, I would have been fired for sure. I was
slightly
injured and had to take off a couple of weeks. The salaried supervisor
asked
me one time what happened. The union steward was present, and he
stopped
him
when he started to get mean (I'm sure his job was on the line). I was
given
an opportunity to make a statement, and briefly mentioned my lack of
experience. When I returned to work, the supervisor found someone to
train
me, so that it wouldn't happen again.

In another situation, I was a staff employee in a union shop (defense
contractor). The union was pretty strict about members not doing
anything
beyond their job description, but tended to look the other way if you
had
a
good relationship with the employee/staff member. We had a situation
of
another supervisor telling his subordinates (me included) that we
shouldn't
fraternize with union people... exchange pleasantries and the like...
I
think he was on a power trip. When this became obvious to a union
member,
he
basically walked off the job along with the other members in the shop
until
the "rule" was rescinded.

Very difficult to believe, Jon. Considered a wildcat strike, an
unfair labor practice, and no Union that I know of would allow that
to happen. Could be held liable for any damages to the company over
the issue. If there is nothing written in the contract about the
right to fraternize then you cannot "strike" over any aspect of the
issue. If there is something in the contract about it, you would have
to go through the grievance procedure.

Frank


It lasted about 1/2 hour. Everyone was satisfied with the result. Can't
help
it if you have difficulty believing it.


Management was satisfied to accept the cost of a half hour disruption
and shutdown of their operation with an illegal wildcat strike? No I
don't believe that.

Management should have filed an unfair labor practice complaint with
the NLRB, and if they did not, it is very difficult to believe. The
Union cannot endorse a "strike" over any issue, grievable or not,
that is why there is a contract.

Frank


Why do I care what you believe again?

I have no idea.

I think you do. :-)


You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Quite a bit.

Frank

You haven't demonstrated that...


Not taking that bait, Jon. But I'll ask a question of you since you
have passed judgement without any facts. How many organizations have
you managed? How many of them were organized. How many in right to
work states? How many union contracts have you negotiated? How many
grievance meetings have you attended. How many labor/management
meetings have you conducted.

I'm still waiting for your experiences that qualify you to make sound
judgements about the difference in effectiveness between very large
organizations and small organizations. What's it been two years?

Frank

Maxprop wrote:
"Walt" wrote in message

With the right exemptions, it can be. Say, a flat X percent with the
first Y dollars exempt. By adjusting X and Y one can make it as
progressive or regressive as you want.

How, then, would that be a "flat tax?"

See the work of Hall & Rabushka in the early 80's, the grandfather of
all modern "flat tax" proposals. It had a flat 19% tax that applied to
corporations and individuals with at $25k deduction for individuals.
This sort of scheme is common to all flat tax proposols.

In terms of high school analytic geometry, a flat tax is a straight
line, but the y-intercept is not necessarily zero. By adjusting the
y-intercept, a flat tax can be made more or less progressive. But it's
still a flat tax regardless of the intercept.

If the y intercept is zero, this is sometimes called a "pure" flat tax,
but to insist on this as part of the definition of "flat tax" is to
ignore 99% of the actual proposals that call themselves by that name.

See http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publi...cfm?PubID=8521.
or
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=pb&id=151

The flat tax was an interesting proposal. Too bad it was used as a
stalking horse.

//Walt

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:54:03 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:05 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:29:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news:flldn2lbfsnk32pqoha1e8f5b2097bqpps@4ax. com...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:15:11 -0800, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

That's a tougher question. I was part of union, and I was required
to
join
for a summer job. There were dues, but the benefits and the pay were
pretty
good, considering I was in high school and had minimal experience. I
had
an
accident at work while driving a forklift... damaged a lot of
expensive
equipment through no fault of my own except inexperience. If I had
not
been
a member of the union, I would have been fired for sure. I was
slightly
injured and had to take off a couple of weeks. The salaried
supervisor
asked
me one time what happened. The union steward was present, and he
stopped
him
when he started to get mean (I'm sure his job was on the line). I
was
given
an opportunity to make a statement, and briefly mentioned my lack of
experience. When I returned to work, the supervisor found someone to
train
me, so that it wouldn't happen again.

In another situation, I was a staff employee in a union shop
(defense
contractor). The union was pretty strict about members not doing
anything
beyond their job description, but tended to look the other way if
you
had
a
good relationship with the employee/staff member. We had a situation
of
another supervisor telling his subordinates (me included) that we
shouldn't
fraternize with union people... exchange pleasantries and the
like...
I
think he was on a power trip. When this became obvious to a union
member,
he
basically walked off the job along with the other members in the
shop
until
the "rule" was rescinded.

Very difficult to believe, Jon. Considered a wildcat strike, an
unfair labor practice, and no Union that I know of would allow that
to happen. Could be held liable for any damages to the company over
the issue. If there is nothing written in the contract about the
right to fraternize then you cannot "strike" over any aspect of the
issue. If there is something in the contract about it, you would
have
to go through the grievance procedure.

Frank


It lasted about 1/2 hour. Everyone was satisfied with the result.
Can't
help
it if you have difficulty believing it.


Management was satisfied to accept the cost of a half hour disruption
and shutdown of their operation with an illegal wildcat strike? No I
don't believe that.

Management should have filed an unfair labor practice complaint with
the NLRB, and if they did not, it is very difficult to believe. The
Union cannot endorse a "strike" over any issue, grievable or not,
that is why there is a contract.

Frank


Why do I care what you believe again?

I have no idea.

I think you do. :-)


You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Quite a bit.

Frank

You haven't demonstrated that...


Not taking that bait, Jon. But I'll ask a question of you since you
have passed judgement without any facts. How many organizations have
you managed? How many of them were organized. How many in right to
work states? How many union contracts have you negotiated? How many
grievance meetings have you attended. How many labor/management
meetings have you conducted.

I'm still waiting for your experiences that qualify you to make sound
judgements about the difference in effectiveness between very large
organizations and small organizations. What's it been two years?

Frank


Frank, you're the one who's passed judgement.. you said you didn't believe
me. I said that you haven't demonstrated knowledge that you know much about
employee relations.

Are you claiming that every time there's a minor violation, management (or
the union) should escalate to legal action?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:07:01 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:54:03 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:05 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:29:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news:flldn2lbfsnk32pqoha1e8f5b2097bqpps@4ax .com...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:15:11 -0800, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

That's a tougher question. I was part of union, and I was required
to
join
for a summer job. There were dues, but the benefits and the pay were
pretty
good, considering I was in high school and had minimal experience. I
had
an
accident at work while driving a forklift... damaged a lot of
expensive
equipment through no fault of my own except inexperience. If I had
not
been
a member of the union, I would have been fired for sure. I was
slightly
injured and had to take off a couple of weeks. The salaried
supervisor
asked
me one time what happened. The union steward was present, and he
stopped
him
when he started to get mean (I'm sure his job was on the line). I
was
given
an opportunity to make a statement, and briefly mentioned my lack of
experience. When I returned to work, the supervisor found someone to
train
me, so that it wouldn't happen again.

In another situation, I was a staff employee in a union shop
(defense
contractor). The union was pretty strict about members not doing
anything
beyond their job description, but tended to look the other way if
you
had
a
good relationship with the employee/staff member. We had a situation
of
another supervisor telling his subordinates (me included) that we
shouldn't
fraternize with union people... exchange pleasantries and the
like...
I
think he was on a power trip. When this became obvious to a union
member,
he
basically walked off the job along with the other members in the
shop
until
the "rule" was rescinded.

Very difficult to believe, Jon. Considered a wildcat strike, an
unfair labor practice, and no Union that I know of would allow that
to happen. Could be held liable for any damages to the company over
the issue. If there is nothing written in the contract about the
right to fraternize then you cannot "strike" over any aspect of the
issue. If there is something in the contract about it, you would
have
to go through the grievance procedure.

Frank


It lasted about 1/2 hour. Everyone was satisfied with the result.
Can't
help
it if you have difficulty believing it.


Management was satisfied to accept the cost of a half hour disruption
and shutdown of their operation with an illegal wildcat strike? No I
don't believe that.

Management should have filed an unfair labor practice complaint with
the NLRB, and if they did not, it is very difficult to believe. The
Union cannot endorse a "strike" over any issue, grievable or not,
that is why there is a contract.

Frank


Why do I care what you believe again?

I have no idea.

I think you do. :-)


You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Quite a bit.

Frank

You haven't demonstrated that...


Not taking that bait, Jon. But I'll ask a question of you since you
have passed judgement without any facts. How many organizations have
you managed? How many of them were organized. How many in right to
work states? How many union contracts have you negotiated? How many
grievance meetings have you attended. How many labor/management
meetings have you conducted.

I'm still waiting for your experiences that qualify you to make sound
judgements about the difference in effectiveness between very large
organizations and small organizations. What's it been two years?

Frank


Frank, you're the one who's passed judgement.. you said you didn't believe
me. I said that you haven't demonstrated knowledge that you know much about
employee relations.

You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Sounds like a judgement to me. But maybe not.

Are you claiming that every time there's a minor violation, management (or
the union) should escalate to legal action?

Did I say that?

wildcat strike - minor contract violation. You're not serious are
you?


You might want to answer my questions. Just trying to find out if you
actually know anything about the subject or are just flailing around.

Frank

"Dave" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:36:37 -0500, "Paladin" noneofyourbusiness.www said:

Rebates are unworkable.

So I guess the European mechanisms for refunding VAT to tourists are just so
many more dead trees.


If you are trying to sound like an fool, you are doing a decent job of it.

VAT taxes are only refunded to tourists who take themselves and their purchases out of the country.
Tourist pay VAT on goods and services of which they avail themselves while in country and these taxes
are not refundable.

Doing the paperwork on small items taken out of the country isn't generally worth the time. However,
if you are buying a yacht and shipping or sailing it out of the country it is. But, this is entirely different
than an American having to document every good or service he used from year to year and requesting a refund
based upon the fact he purchased everything with retirement fund money. Good luck with that.

Now, Dave, it is high time I told you to shut your pie hole. Please spare yourself further embarrassment and
discontinue future displays of stupidity.

Paladin
(Have gun - will travel)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I think you've made your point, Frank. Add labor relations to the long
list of subjects on which Jon has opinions without experience, evidence
or ability to defend them.

PDW

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:07:01 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 16:54:03 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:05 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:29:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news:flldn2lbfsnk32pqoha1e8f5b2097bqpps@4ax .com...
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:15:11 -0800, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

That's a tougher question. I was part of union, and I was required
to
join
for a summer job. There were dues, but the benefits and the pay were
pretty
good, considering I was in high school and had minimal experience. I
had
an
accident at work while driving a forklift... damaged a lot of
expensive
equipment through no fault of my own except inexperience. If I had
not
been
a member of the union, I would have been fired for sure. I was
slightly
injured and had to take off a couple of weeks. The salaried
supervisor
asked
me one time what happened. The union steward was present, and he
stopped
him
when he started to get mean (I'm sure his job was on the line). I
was
given
an opportunity to make a statement, and briefly mentioned my lack of
experience. When I returned to work, the supervisor found someone to
train
me, so that it wouldn't happen again.

In another situation, I was a staff employee in a union shop
(defense
contractor). The union was pretty strict about members not doing
anything
beyond their job description, but tended to look the other way if
you
had
a
good relationship with the employee/staff member. We had a situation
of
another supervisor telling his subordinates (me included) that we
shouldn't
fraternize with union people... exchange pleasantries and the
like...
I
think he was on a power trip. When this became obvious to a union
member,
he
basically walked off the job along with the other members in the
shop
until
the "rule" was rescinded.

Very difficult to believe, Jon. Considered a wildcat strike, an
unfair labor practice, and no Union that I know of would allow that
to happen. Could be held liable for any damages to the company over
the issue. If there is nothing written in the contract about the
right to fraternize then you cannot "strike" over any aspect of the
issue. If there is something in the contract about it, you would
have
to go through the grievance procedure.

Frank


It lasted about 1/2 hour. Everyone was satisfied with the result.
Can't
help
it if you have difficulty believing it.


Management was satisfied to accept the cost of a half hour disruption
and shutdown of their operation with an illegal wildcat strike? No I
don't believe that.

Management should have filed an unfair labor practice complaint with
the NLRB, and if they did not, it is very difficult to believe. The
Union cannot endorse a "strike" over any issue, grievable or not,
that is why there is a contract.

Frank


Why do I care what you believe again?

I have no idea.

I think you do. :-)


You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Quite a bit.

Frank

You haven't demonstrated that...


Not taking that bait, Jon. But I'll ask a question of you since you
have passed judgement without any facts. How many organizations have
you managed? How many of them were organized. How many in right to
work states? How many union contracts have you negotiated? How many
grievance meetings have you attended. How many labor/management
meetings have you conducted.

I'm still waiting for your experiences that qualify you to make sound
judgements about the difference in effectiveness between very large
organizations and small organizations. What's it been two years?

Frank


Frank, you're the one who's passed judgement.. you said you didn't believe
me. I said that you haven't demonstrated knowledge that you know much about
employee relations.

You don't know much about
management/employee relations do you.

Sounds like a judgement to me. But maybe not.

Are you claiming that every time there's a minor violation, management (or
the union) should escalate to legal action?

Did I say that?

wildcat strike - minor contract violation. You're not serious are
you?


You might want to answer my questions. Just trying to find out if you
actually know anything about the subject or are just flailing around.

Frank