Blood on my mast
 

Dave wrote:
Here's some recommended reading (note particularly that it's about South
Africa).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4264374.stm


Great, now you're citing such seriously left-wing biased
"news" sources like the BBC.


katy wrote:
I am not disputing that DDT would be eddicacious used in households

Actually, if the article Dave points to above is right, it's
pretty impressive.

However, I noticed that other effects from the DDT spraying
aren't mentioned. Gee, that must because there aren't any!


however, like I said, who is going to regulate that in countries where
regulations are set by blackmailers, terrorists, and military
governments? If the UN would step in and do what it is supposed to do,
that would be one way. Are they involved? They should be.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust the UN with DDT.


... If DDT is
rteleased to the masses, Africa will suffer the same problems with it as
what happened here. Only through careful control and regulation should
it be used and all efforts should be made to use alternate, more safe
methods.


"Regulation" isn't the answer. The problem with DDT is that
it last just about forever, and it ends up in places where
you don't want it. Remember, water runs downhill... and if
it's carrying even just a few molecules of DDT then
something in the ecological chain is going to die out. The
*very* careful spraying on indoor surfaces seems like one
way to keep the environmental impact to a minimum, but I
would expect that if this program goes on for very long,
then we'll see repercussions... and of course, officials
saying "Gee, we tried to prevent this, we didn't know how
bad it was."

DSK

Blood on my mast
 

katysails wrote:
So kill them with pesticides instead. How civil of you. My personal
opinion about the majority of Africa is that the world has ignored it
and shame on the world.

I think somewhat worse than that, the better to exploit
Africa's resources, the rest of the world has encouraged
criminally stupid & short-sighted & corrupt gov'ts.

Great Britain, France and Italy all had colonies
and when they left they left for good. Shame on them. They assumed
stewardship, gave it up, and left a mess.


Oh I dunno, it was a mess when they got there too.

Peter wrote:
That isn't even close to correct. When Great Britain left what was then
Rhodesia, it had a sound economy, was a nett food exporter and had a
reasonable health, education and civic infrastructure. That is
established fact. Ditto Kenya.


I'd say that of the colonial powers, the British had about
the best (and most consistent, more to their credit)record
of building infrastructure, encouraging local economic
autonomy & development, and leaving the least mess behind
them. Certainly better than say Belgium.

It's an interesting contrast to think what the African
countries would be like today if there had never been any
colonization.


Also, the European powers didn't just up & leave those colonies. They
were thrown out by the original inhabitants who knew they could do a
better job of running things for themselves. Aided & abetted by the USA
& the USSR, both of whom wanted to reduce the power & influence of the
European powers for their own ends.


The U.S. interest was/is mostly for profit. Remember, the
reason those European countries went into the empire busines
was... well, business. To make money. Which they did, often
by means that were not entirely kinder & gentler to the locals.


After 30 years of one party rule in now Zimbabwe, they have none of
civil infrastructure, adequate food, security, medical treatment or
education. Kenya? Pffft.

A very interesting book, which BTW is mostly about sailing,
that talks a good bit about polititcal & social events at
the beginning of this downslide is "The Walkabouts."
http://www.goodoldboat.com/bookrevie...tml#walkabouts


The ONLY remaining country in Africa that
comes even *close* to First World standards in *anything* is South
Africa and I'm not betting any money on them either.


The funny thing is that it's not a question of overall
wealth. These countries are fabulously wealthy in resources
and often in cash flow. The problem (those of you who like
to use this as a libby-rull bashing catch-phrase take
notice) is the distribution of wealth.

South Africa tilted things in the somewhat-right direction
and of course is suffering a lot of unintended consequences,
while many parties are trying to tilt things other ways.


It isn't the fault of Great Britain.

Agreed. None of the colonial powers ever seriously undertook
to build a stable & sef-sustaining social & economic
infrastructure to leave behind. And how can you blame them,
when that wasn't even close to what they were there for in
the first place?

DSK

Blood on my mast
 

Heh.. that would be impressive...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
Not any more.. too expensive and not enough time. Started with rockets
when I was in grade school... we took out a window in an apartment
building in Chicago once... :-)

From San Francisco??? That's impressive!

Blood on my mast
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
One of my model airplanes would work fine and we could use a predator
drone for bigger huts.

Are you into RC, Jon?

Not any more.. too expensive and not enough time. Started with rockets
when I was in grade school... we took out a window in an apartment
building in Chicago once... :-)

Kewl. I set a warehouse on fire with a free-flight model airplane when I
was 12.

Max

Blood on my mast
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
Not any more.. too expensive and not enough time. Started with rockets
when I was in grade school... we took out a window in an apartment
building in Chicago once... :-)

From San Francisco??? That's impressive!

It was an ICBM.

Max

Blood on my mast
 

I had a camera that fit in one of the rockets, and we used to take pictures
but that got boring. So, we started our own astronaut program... crickets
and bugs and stuff, then we convinced one of the girls in the neighborhood
to donate a gerbil or hamster... the smaller one... attached a parachute to
it, which worked fine, but the damn thing wiggled out of the harness about
50 feet off the ground... not a pretty sight, and the girl was PO'd.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
One of my model airplanes would work fine and we could use a predator
drone for bigger huts.

Are you into RC, Jon?

Not any more.. too expensive and not enough time. Started with rockets
when I was in grade school... we took out a window in an apartment
building in Chicago once... :-)

Kewl. I set a warehouse on fire with a free-flight model airplane when I
was 12.

Max

Blood on my mast
 

What a morning, I step off the boat to walk Skipper and get the evil
eye and a long line of screeching from a Bald Eagle. He's on the tip
top of my main mast with a huge speckled trout..

AR15 and a 30rd mag. He won't be back.

Blood on my mast
 

DSK wrote:
katysails wrote:
So kill them with pesticides instead. How civil of you. My personal
opinion about the majority of Africa is that the world has ignored it
and shame on the world.

I think somewhat worse than that, the better to exploit
Africa's resources, the rest of the world has encouraged
criminally stupid & short-sighted & corrupt gov'ts.

Great Britain, France and Italy all had colonies
and when they left they left for good. Shame on them. They assumed
stewardship, gave it up, and left a mess.


Oh I dunno, it was a mess when they got there too.

Peter wrote:
That isn't even close to correct. When Great Britain left what was then
Rhodesia, it had a sound economy, was a nett food exporter and had a
reasonable health, education and civic infrastructure. That is
established fact. Ditto Kenya.


I'd say that of the colonial powers, the British had about
the best (and most consistent, more to their credit)record
of building infrastructure, encouraging local economic
autonomy & development, and leaving the least mess behind
them. Certainly better than say Belgium.

Belgium was undoubtedly the worst. Have you read Stanley's biography?
Well worth a read. I'll dig up the ISBN if you like.

It's an interesting contrast to think what the African
countries would be like today if there had never been any
colonization.

Eggs - scrambled. What would the USA be like today without
colonisation? Australia?

Also, the European powers didn't just up & leave those colonies. They
were thrown out by the original inhabitants who knew they could do a
better job of running things for themselves. Aided & abetted by the USA
& the USSR, both of whom wanted to reduce the power & influence of the
European powers for their own ends.


The U.S. interest was/is mostly for profit. Remember, the
reason those European countries went into the empire busines
was... well, business. To make money. Which they did, often
by means that were not entirely kinder & gentler to the locals.

Quite true. It's fascinating reading the accounts of people who were
out & about during the period between WW1 and WW2, then up to the late
50's.


After 30 years of one party rule in now Zimbabwe, they have none of
civil infrastructure, adequate food, security, medical treatment or
education. Kenya? Pffft.

A very interesting book, which BTW is mostly about sailing,
that talks a good bit about polititcal & social events at
the beginning of this downslide is "The Walkabouts."
http://www.goodoldboat.com/bookrevie...tml#walkabouts

Funnily enough, I own a copy of that book. First edition :-)

The ONLY remaining country in Africa that
comes even *close* to First World standards in *anything* is South
Africa and I'm not betting any money on them either.


The funny thing is that it's not a question of overall
wealth. These countries are fabulously wealthy in resources
and often in cash flow. The problem (those of you who like
to use this as a libby-rull bashing catch-phrase take
notice) is the distribution of wealth.

The problem is outright corruption and theft by the leadership, coupled
with gross incompetence.

South Africa tilted things in the somewhat-right direction
and of course is suffering a lot of unintended consequences,
while many parties are trying to tilt things other ways.


It isn't the fault of Great Britain.

Agreed. None of the colonial powers ever seriously undertook
to build a stable & sef-sustaining social & economic
infrastructure to leave behind.

I disagree. They didn't set out to do it, but in fact they did. OK you
can argue that in fact they didn't because history shows the result. I
look at it in terms of infrastructure and economics. Taking Zimbabwe as
a classic example of a failed state. At independence they were nett
food exporters, raw materials exporters, had a good balance of trade,
fed the population, had a competent civil service, a good military, a
functional education system, medical system, legal system, roads and
rail services. They had all the material things needed to succeed as an
independent country. All they had to do was keep running things as they
had been, with a bias over time to better education funded by
affordable tax increases. Wouldn't have been a real problem as the then
Rhodesia had sky high taxes and suffered heavily from sanctions on both
imports and exports. Their economy should have *surged* and the std of
living gone up.

They're a basket case due to gross mismanagement, incompetence, triumph
of ideology over common sense and good management. That's their OWN
fault. They had everything necessary to succeed, and they ****ed it all
away. If there is a hell, Robert Mugabe will have a long stay in the
9th ring.

And how can you blame them,
when that wasn't even close to what they were there for in
the first place?

I blame the people in charge of those countries since independence for
their state in the world today. If they ran predictable regimes and
looked after their people, they would be modern rich countries. Instead
they're ********s. Until they get their act together, I don't spend
much time thinking about their plight and I certainly never give a
single cent to charities helping them stay as they are.

PDW

Blood on my mast
 

Dave wrote:
On 22 Nov 2006 15:26:50 -0800, "Peter" said:

I disagree. They didn't set out to do it, but in fact they did. OK you
can argue that in fact they didn't because history shows the result. I
look at it in terms of infrastructure and economics. Taking Zimbabwe as
a classic example of a failed state. At independence they were nett
food exporters, raw materials exporters, had a good balance of trade,
fed the population, had a competent civil service, a good military, a
functional education system, medical system, legal system, roads and
rail services. They had all the material things needed to succeed as an
independent country. All they had to do was keep running things as they
had been, with a bias over time to better education funded by
affordable tax increases. Wouldn't have been a real problem as the then
Rhodesia had sky high taxes and suffered heavily from sanctions on both
imports and exports. Their economy should have *surged* and the std of
living gone up.

The situation in South Africa was similar. I had a client with operations
there, and I was there in 1976, about 2 weeks after the Soweto riots. The
country was much as you described Rhodesia, and was also becoming
energy-independent through the use of advanced coal gasification and nuclear
power.

Of course Doug and others will jump up and say "Ah, but it wasn't
sustainable, because you had privileged classes of English and Afrikaans
whites sitting on top of a pyramid of black have-nots."

And while that may be true, the institutions and government structure were
certainly in place, wanting only to be run honestly and well.

It's certainly true that the economic structure was very, very heavily
weighted to the colonial aristocracy - generally the whites. It's also
true that South Africa's apartheid system was offensive, stupid and
untimately self-defeating. They ALL would have been a lot better off
trying to grow the middle class as fast as possible by whoever could do
it rather than having a pyramid with the 'whites' at the top and the
natives at the bottom as labourers. The British attitude towards
breeding/marrying the locals was also offensive & stupid. The French in
the Pacific were a lot better colonial masters as a whole than the
British - and lets not even mention the Germans & later the Japanese.

However. The moral of the goose that laid the golden eggs applies.
Destroying productive enterprises in the name of justice seems to have
resulted in none of justice, efficiency or productive enterprises. Yes,
people are a lot more equal. In poverty. Reminds me of a time I defined
communism as the philosophy that stated that all would starve equally.
When challenged, I modified it to all starving equally, except the
nomenklatura. Upon which I was labelled a cynic, but the observation
was indisputably correct.

Marie Rhydwyn's book 'Slow Travel' is an interesting read, esp the way
a left wing Aussie academic had to confront some of her cherished
beliefs when living/working in Tanzania. Sailing content - she & her
husband sailed there from Perth WA via Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka,
Maldives, Chagos * the Seychelles.

I've seen the results of ex-colonies' economic management first hand in
places where I've worked. Australia has troops in the Solomon Islands
at the moment and we're likely to have them in a number of other places
as well. These are colonies that can't cut it on their own. Back to the
original thread - sort of - they're also places with malaria.

PDW

Blood on my mast
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I had a camera that fit in one of the rockets, and we used to take pictures
but that got boring. So, we started our own astronaut program... crickets
and bugs and stuff, then we convinced one of the girls in the neighborhood
to donate a gerbil or hamster... the smaller one... attached a parachute to
it, which worked fine, but the damn thing wiggled out of the harness about
50 feet off the ground... not a pretty sight, and the girl was PO'd.

How funny. We put a mouse in one of those Estes rockets once--we made a
'capsule' with rolled construction paper and padded both ends with foam
rubber and cotton. Of course this one time the parachute failed to open.
What we *poured* out of the 'capsule' wasn't particularly appetizing either.

Max