Jeff wrote:

JimC wrote:

But winning in your business is not the same as being right. In my
experience, lawyers are more often on the side of "wrong" than on the
side of "right." (I think that's because the forces of "wrong" can
afford more of them!)



If there are lawyers representing both sides, how can more lawyers be
on the "wrong" side? - Some of them must be on the "right" side.
Regarding my particular specialty, I was an intellectual property and
licensing attorney, not a trial lawyer.


So what part of my (admittedly unfounded) claim that the forces of wrong
can afford more lawyers? You're just proving my point that many
lawyers will lie steal and cheat to win. It seems to be in their blood.

Jeff, I don't have time to defend lawyers on this ng. - I hardly have
time to discuss the Mac. But I do remember that the usual quote from
Shakespeare - "The first thing we'll do, let's kill all the lawyers"
was from the thieves and robbers who didn't want lawyers interfering
with their "businesses".


And let me point out again, its not the weight, its the location.
A 250 pound engine hanging off the stern contribute far more to the
pitch moment than an inboard close to the center of the boat.


Well, that's clear enough, and I agree. But once more, the boat is
built to be balanced fore and aft with a motor and a crew in the
cockpit. And it is.



Totally irrelevant.


Nope. It's actually quite relevant. The boat is built to be balanced,
under sail or power, with the motor and a typical crew in the cockpit.
By "balance" I meant that the hull, motor, ballast, and sails work
togther to
cause the boat to to sail and motor as efficiently as possible under a
variety
of applications. In general, it sails and powers well, it doesn't
"pitch" excessively,
and it is fun to sail.


And once again, you prove my point that you will blatantly lie in order
to claim that, as you say, you "seldom loose." The issue has nothing to
to with "balance," it has to do with distribution.

I told you to learn about "moment of inertia" and you even posted the
fundamentals. Its clear, however, that you didn't bother to read it.


Either you're too stupid to follow the discussion,

or you just showing what type of lawyer you really are. Obviously the
boat was designed to float on its lines with full ballast and an
engine. The issue is whether a different distribution of mass would
lead to a boat that sails better.


And just how would you redistribute the mass, Jeff? - Where would you
move the outboard, and where would you move the ballast?

The 26M is the result of years of development, feedback, and mods. It
does a lot of things most sailboats can't do. If serves the needs of
most sailors, under the conditions experienced 90% of the time. It's
relatively inexpensive, if you are willing to compare the costs of new
boats to new boats, or used boats to used boats, and not compare the
costs of 15 year old boats with that of a new Mac 26M similarly
equipped. And, (I almost forgot) it's a lot of fun to sail.


Maybe it would. But it's still a lot of fun to sail as it is. (I'm
repeating myself, but isn't that the point, after all?


Is it? Little children think picking their nose is fun, is that your
standard? You fight every detail tooth and nail, even when you know
you're wrong, and then you say "it doesn't matter that I'm lying because
I'm having fun."


Jeff, we may have differing opinions, and you seem to have confused your
own opinions as facts, but would you please name the more egregious
instances of my lying? Perhaps you could list the top ten instances?

The reason I bought the boat is to have fun sailing it, not to race
it.) Also, I believe that the new 26M hull is more efficient for
sailing, and smoother when plaining(though perhaps not quite as
efficient) as the older model.


That's like saying that a piece of **** can be good when judged against
another piece of ****. I think I see your point there, Jim.

If a 4000 lb racing boat boat sailed with one large (250 lb) crew
hanging off the stern, and another standing on the bow, it would be
substantially slower than its competitors. (Not to mention being
more uncomfortable.)



So, what's your point, Jeff. The 26M was built as a family cruiser, not a
racer. Most racing boats in this size and price range wouldn't be as
comfortable or as roomy or as versatile as the Mac. (Plus, it's lots of
fun to sail.)


Half the time you claim your boat is fast, the rest of the time you
claim your boat is slow but you don't care. This discussion was
specifically about how the distribution of mass affects stability and
performance, and all you shown is that you have no concept of these
matters, nor do you care.


The boat is fast enough to be fun to sail, Jeff. It's not as fast as
some other boats, but it's still fun to sail. - Isn't that the important
factor.? (Actually, I wasn't having too much problem keeping up with
some, though not all, of the larger boats on my last cruise.)





However, I don't think I agree that a typical diesel, with
generator, fuel pump, filters, prop shaft, etc., would weigh about
the same as a modern outboard. - Any stats on that one?



I thought I just gave one. The weight of a 15 Hp Yanmar, including
everything (alternator, pumps, filter) except the shaft and prop is
249 lbs. Clearly one might add another fuel filter or water filter,
and the muffler weighs a few pounds (mine are plastic) but all of
this is only a few pounds, and then your outboard also has a few
extra bits and pieces not included in its base weight. Also, since
the diesel generates almost twice the power from a pound of fuel, one
can claim a huge weight advantage on that front.



That's more than my 50 hp weighs. Also, add the weight of the drive
shaft, the drive shaft bushings, the mounting hardware, the
reinforcements to the hull supporting the motor, etc.


Yes, we know that the mac has no reinforcements to the hull supporting
its motor. You really are intent on showing how lawyers lie, aren't you?

It has enough.


You made the claim that a diesel is much heavier than an outboard, and
that simply isn't true. Further, the issue has nothing to do with the
possible difference of 20 pounds, it has to do with the distribution.

As to the relative weight, it seems that you want us to accept your
personal opinions about how much the typical diesel engine for a small
sailboat weighs from your single example, which omitted the necessary
weight of the drive shaft, the mounting, etc.. From your note, it seems
that you are saying that I should just shut up and accept your
propaganda based on that example. - Perhaps it would clarify things if
you provided some stats about the weight of several typical diesel
installations on smaller boats. (Including ALL associated components,
including drive shaft, cooling system, through-hull components, fuel and
water filters, pumps, mounting structures, controls, fuel tanks, etc.)
Remember also that the Mac, with its light weight and high freeboard,
needs reserve power for control and to get through chop, adverse winds,
etc. (And to avoid going through the usual discussion of why the Mac
should have been designed differently to avoid such limitations in the
first place, I acknowledge that the high freeboard is a disadvantage,
but it's also an advantage in that the boat is roomy and comfortable and
includes an unusually large cabin. - The light weight and lack of
weighted keel are disadvantages, but they permit convenient tailoring,
motoring or sailing in shallow waters, and high-speed motoring, etc.)
As previously noted, my comments on this ng are intended to help provide
a balanced representation of the Mac (missing in other discussions), not
to claim it has no limitations.)


And BTW, the diesel appropriate for a boat as light as yours would be a
single cylinder, which would weigh just about the same as your outboard.

Care to provide specs on a few examples, Jeff, along with their gross
weight? And, as mentioned above, remember that the Mac, with its high
freeboard and light weight, needs substantial power to get through chop
and adverse wind conditions, to stay on course in extreme weather, and
to dock efficiently. - A small diesel isn't going to cut it. Also, a
small diesel isn't going to get the boat on a plane either. - No more
quick runs back to the marina, no quick passages to desired skiing
areas, no water tubing for the kids, etc.)

Sounds like fun. Might I remind you that a few years ago you were
insisting the Mac could do 18 knots while I was saying that was
unrealistic, you probably wouldn't do much over 12.


Here's the quote to which you apparently refer:


No, that wasn't the specific quote, but it was one of several. Actually,
I objected to the claim that the high speeds could be used when
returning in bad weather. Given all of the warnings about running at
high speed or without ballast in chop over one foot, this appears
unrealistic, if not impossible.


Incidentally, in notes on the MacGregor discussion groups, speeds of
over 20 knots are being reported when sailing without the ballast, and
with a larger motor. - I personally haven't wanted to motor without
the ballast so far, but I'll give it a try this Spring.


There is no doubt that it can be fast in flat water and unloaded.

I was referring to comments of Mac owners about powering from California
to Catalina and elsewhere with full loads at high speed, but without
ballast. Flat water, Jeff? All the way to Catalina?


Of course, put that engine on a proper powerboat and you'd do about 40
knots, so what's your point?

Most owners of 26-foot cabin cruiser power boats seem to use two or
three outboards substantially larger than mine, or large
inboard-outboards. Don't think your plan (one 50 hp outboard) is going
to work Jeff.


I was still doing substantially more than any other sailboat on the
Bay, and there were plenty out there. (And as mentioned above, I
didn't have the throttle wide open.)


yada yada yada


And, despite the "yada yada yada", ..... doesn't that example indicate
that the Mac has obvious advantages relative to its capabilities under
power? I think most unbiased readers would acknowledge that fact.

bragging that you can power faster than sailboats. impressive.

You didn't quite get it, Jeff. I was responding to your remarks to the
effect that the Macs can't power efficiently under severe weather
conditions. (On this trip we had chop, white-caps, winds sufficient to
convince skippers of several larger boats to sail with only a main or
jib, and I was motoring under partial power.) You introduced the topic.
You then tried to put me down, referring to (selected portions of)
remarks of mine posted over a year ago, because I was "only" doing 13
knots. - I merely responded.


Jim