otnmbrd wrote:
Jeff wrote in
:

Most of the rules are a "simple statements." The point here is that
you claimed that NUC's should never be making way, they should always
be anchored. But the writers of the rules went out of their way to
specify the lights for a NUC making way, and the publisher's of the
government issue book felt it was important enough to devout a picture
to it. Obviously, if they specified the lights for this situation,
they must have assumed that sometimes it happens.

Misread. When I was talking about a NUC being anchored, I was referring
to one in coastal/inland waters which was on soundings and able to anchor
(one reason you probably won't see one). Since they could anchor, once
anchored they were no longer NUC....simply a vessel at anchor. In open
ocean, naturally they would continue to drift, however when the breakdown
occurred they would naturally continue on for a period (hence side
lights, etc so other vessels could visually monitor) until they lost way.
The rule is simply saying keep those lights on until you stop.

Hmmm. Does drifting count as "making way through the water"? How
about dragging anchor?


Interesting
indeed. As I've said, the definitions as well as your experience
may imply that NUC's are significant more impaired than RAM's. But
still,
it doesn't say that in Rule 18.
Specifically no, implied yes.
It isn't even implied! There is not a single word anywhere in the
rule 18 to the affect that a RAM shall keep out of the way of
anything. In fact is that this "implied rule" is so conspicuous by
its absence that it very clear they did not intend that at all.

Your claim is that the wording of the rule about what a powerboat
should do (and similar rules for sail and fishing boats) somehow imply
what a RAM must do, but there is nothing to that effect.

For me the implication is in the order (you're right, not a word is said)
Look at the sequence... NUC is always first.

So? Something has to be first in a list. This is a list of vessels a
powerboat must stay clear of, not is said about what a RAM must stay
clear of.



Answer: C, Rule 18.c. A vessel engaged in fishing when underway
shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of a vessel not
under command and a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.
Bet that ones been argued.
You can argue the practical side of this, but the words are quite
clear.
Clear to you, clear to me.....just different interpretations.
No, even you've said it isn't in the rules - you've claimed its
implied by the definition of NUC and your experience.

G we can go around like this for months....I'm a stubborn Scot and
stick to my guns on this.

Because NUC is one signal and what you are talking about is
another.
You "D" flag is picking nits - there's nothing in the rules about
this.
Rule 35(c) he said, opening up another can of worms......
And in truth, there is nothing nitpicking about it. I was required to
learn these signals and the methods of transmitting them. The fact
they weren't written in the Rules, is immaterial....they are in the
Code of Signals.... the fact that most recreational boaters are not
aware of them/it is...... well, you get the idea.
They aren't required now for receiving a Master's license. Showing a
signal that isn't likely to be understood by many observers is not
very useful.

Been awhile since I took the test. However since single signal signals
(Flags) are still used I find that hard to believe.
The fact that so many of those observers are not aware of this signal or
of those signals in general tells me that the various teaching groups are
not doing their job. These signals are just as important and should as
easily recognized and used by the recreational boater as are black balls,
cones, etc.

Truly, signal flags are not part of the test. I think there might be
some mention somewhere that a book exist that explains these things,
but it certainly would be part of the "closed book, 90% to pass" part
which specifically covers the rules and is in fact where the question
I posted came from.


BG sore subject....off my soap box
BTW you will note that theses signals may be sent by ANY method of
signalling.

You mean like two vertical balls?





Either you missed it or you ignored it..... go to International
Code of Signals..... Single letter signals.... "D" Keep clear of
me; I am maneuvering with difficulty
So why not do that with your small boat RAM?
Not sure I can see a reason not to. After all, it's not saying I'm
"unable to maneuver", just having difficulty or restricted in
ability, to.
I'm not following your logic here - why wouldn't "delta" be just as
appropriate in a NUC-like situation as a RAM-like situation?

Because as you know, I say a NUC is unable to maneuver.

Yes, but that's begging the question. (I mean that in the true sense
of defining you terms so as to make an real discussion of the issue
irrelevant.)



Of course, I've never used flag signals except in very specific
situations (race signals, diver down, etc) so what do I know?

EG Shame on you..... course I doubt many in this group
have....knowingly.

Yes, there was a time when owning a complete set of signal flags was
actually on my list. But now they've fallen into that dark zone of
having no antique or nostalgia value, but not being really useful.
Kind of like an RDF, which I did own and use, but didn't keep.

Jeff wrote in
:

otnmbrd wrote:
The rule is simply
saying keep those lights on until you stop.

Hmmm. Does drifting count as "making way through the water"?

That's a judgement call..... normally I'd say no, since not having them
on might give more information.

How
about dragging anchor?

Again, a judgement call....since you are now at anchor and showing anchor
lights not NUC...



For me the implication is in the order (you're right, not a word is
said) Look at the sequence... NUC is always first.

So? Something has to be first in a list. This is a list of vessels a
powerboat must stay clear of, not is said about what a RAM must stay
clear of.

It basically boils down to how you read/perceive/interpret.
To me the Rules are some basic guidelines that follow a common sense
progression, so I interpret Rule 18, as I do.



Truly, signal flags are not part of the test. I think there might be
some mention somewhere that a book exist that explains these things,
but it certainly would be part of the "closed book, 90% to pass" part
which specifically covers the rules and is in fact where the question
I posted came from.
\
I will have to look. However, whether you consciously see them or not,
these signals are used (some of them) daily by ships and others,
especially in coastal waters... "A","B","G","H","Q","S","D"(in fog),
"E","I" to name a few.



BG sore subject....off my soap box
BTW you will note that theses signals may be sent by ANY method of
signalling.

You mean like two vertical balls?

No I mean flag, flashing light (morse), whistle (morse), semaphor (G).






Either you missed it or you ignored it..... go to International
Code of Signals..... Single letter signals.... "D" Keep clear of
me; I am maneuvering with difficulty
So why not do that with your small boat RAM?
Not sure I can see a reason not to. After all, it's not saying I'm
"unable to maneuver", just having difficulty or restricted in
ability, to.
I'm not following your logic here - why wouldn't "delta" be just as
appropriate in a NUC-like situation as a RAM-like situation?

Because as you know, I say a NUC is unable to maneuver.

Yes, but that's begging the question. (I mean that in the true sense
of defining you terms so as to make an real discussion of the issue
irrelevant.)



Of course, I've never used flag signals except in very specific
situations (race signals, diver down, etc) so what do I know?

EG Shame on you..... course I doubt many in this group
have....knowingly.

Yes, there was a time when owning a complete set of signal flags was
actually on my list. But now they've fallen into that dark zone of
having no antique or nostalgia value, but not being really useful.
Kind of like an RDF, which I did own and use, but didn't keep.

You may have dumped the flags/morse too soon. Once again, you do use them
you just may not be conscious of it.

otn