"JimC" wrote
| As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
| experiences we get on our respective boats.


They taught us safety was the main issue.... I like MacGregors's but everybody knows
they're built flimsy.... They're not as safe as they could be. They need to make them better.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| As you say, the main issue is whether we are enjoying the sailing
| experiences we get on our respective boats.


They taught us safety was the main issue.... I like MacGregors's but everybody knows
they're built flimsy.... They're not as safe as they could be. They need to make them better.

Cheers,
Ellen

Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
crossings.

- On the other hand, if you don't have evidence that lots of them are
failing or falling apart because "they're built flimsy....", then maybe
you should tell us that and qualify your statements. There are over 20K
Macs still sailing. - What percentage of them have failed because of
inadequate rigging or hull construction?

Please provide evidence that lots of Macs are failing because their
rigging is not adequate for the particular application.

Jim

"JimC" wrote
| Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
| Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
| don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
| that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
| would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
| standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
| that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
| Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
| boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
| crossings.


All you have to do is Google it. You'll find lots of things that say flimsy! Here's one:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...79239908e0a744

"Actually two different things were failing simultaneously. The cheap
steering helm "warped". This would appear to be due to the fact that
it is designed for small power boats, and is NOT designed to handle
the stress of feedback from rudders. This did not, of course, happen
instantly, but when it finally died it did it big time. This problem
can be remedied by replacing the stock helm with a good steel one,
available from a number of marine supply houses. You have to replace
both the helm and the cable. The mechanic who did the installation
for me could not believe that Macgregor had used such inadequate
hardware. The second problem related to having non-stainless mounting
hardware that corroded. A side item that we discovered later is that
one of the rudder brackets was cracking. There are numerous other
problems relating to the whole arrangement, including an inabliltiy to
get an adequate range of motion from the engine. The system needs a
complete redesign. "

There are lots more discussions. Lot's of stuff is built flimsy and breaks on MacGregor 26 sailboat.
Everybody knows about it. Here's the Google search from news groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Ma...roups&ct=title
Not very safe when so many things wear out or break. Safety should come
first out on the water. You can drown just as easy near the shore as off shore. Duh!

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen,

Isolated anecdotes don't constitute evidence or statistics. - And that's
what I asked for - not anecdotes.

There are thousands of Macs still sailing in all kinds of waters all
over the world, and the great majority of reports from Mac owners are
that they are happy with their boats and would buy another one.
Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
for example.

Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say
much about the typical experience of the thousands of Mac owners. - Even
less significant are the sarcastic remarks and second-hand hearsay
comments from owners of other boats who have little or no experience
with the Macs, much less having sailed the current model.

Jim




Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| Do you have any statistics or evidence to support your claim that the
| Macs are built "flimsy", Ellen? - Or are you just going to say that you
| don't have to provide any evidence because "Everybody knows....." Or
| that you don't have any evidence of multiple Mac failures, but you
| would just feel more comforatable if they were built heavier and had
| standing rigging like a 40-ft Valiant, ODay, Tartan, etc. The facts are
| that the Macs are light boats, and, accordingly, their rigging is light.
| Obviously, it's not the same as rigging needed for a larger, heavier
| boat. Also, the Macs are not sold as boats suitable for blue water
| crossings.


All you have to do is Google it. You'll find lots of things that say flimsy! Here's one:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...79239908e0a744

"Actually two different things were failing simultaneously. The cheap
steering helm "warped". This would appear to be due to the fact that
it is designed for small power boats, and is NOT designed to handle
the stress of feedback from rudders. This did not, of course, happen
instantly, but when it finally died it did it big time. This problem
can be remedied by replacing the stock helm with a good steel one,
available from a number of marine supply houses. You have to replace
both the helm and the cable. The mechanic who did the installation
for me could not believe that Macgregor had used such inadequate
hardware. The second problem related to having non-stainless mounting
hardware that corroded. A side item that we discovered later is that
one of the rudder brackets was cracking. There are numerous other
problems relating to the whole arrangement, including an inabliltiy to
get an adequate range of motion from the engine. The system needs a
complete redesign. "


- - This, again is merely an anecdotal report about one boat. - What Mac
was this, how old was it, and what percentage of Macs purchased in the
past ten years have had this problem? If it was an early year 26X model,
the steering linkage was changed long ago. - -


" We've owned both a 26 and a 26X. I disagree with your comment about the 26
sailing better than the 26X. I've sailed the 26X on Lake Superior for the
last 3 years, not only is it quicker under sail but it is much more stable.
As for the outboard, we run a Yamaha 15hp, which works well. The guys that
run the 50HP can sure go fast, but you can't put enough fuel on the boat to
make the engine useable for any type of cruising.
Ventures and Macgragors are built "less-expensively" but are pretty well
engineered. Remember a lighter boat imposes less strain on it's
structure and rig; furthermore there are literally dozens of thousands
of them that have been happily sailing for years."

- This is what I was saying. --


" I don't own one myself, but two of my best sailing friends have the
older Mac 26 and get a lot of enjoyable sailing and cruising out of
them. But they just don't have any "snob appeal"....."

"We've loved both of the Mac's we've owned, definitely a great sailing,
AFFORDABLE boat. As for the snob appeal, I'd rather have none than have to
worry about a $1000 boat payment every month."


"Flimsy to me implies not strong enough for the intended purpose and/or
likely to fall apart quickly. Neither is true of the 26X--like other
Macs,the 26X aren't experiencing structural failures. I expect the 26Xs
willstill be out on the water offending the purists 20 or 25 years from
now just like the old Ventures."

------------------
(Again, a few comments taken from your own search.)

"JimC" wrote
| Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
| problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
| 26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
| 26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
| experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
| technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
| on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

They should have recalled it and fixed it on ALL the boats. Are they gonna
let somebody drown first?

| Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
| the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
| their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
| for example.

Some people ain't too bright. Some people are happy with dangerous things.

| Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say

People telling other people how their boats broke and almost caused serious damage
or injury are valid to listen to. If you only listen to the glowing reports you don't get
the whole picture. Being so biased and defending a flimsy boat just because you have
one is dumb.

Cheers,
Ellen

You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
sold. How many of the 30,000 have had failures of the steering system
Ellen? Or, for that matter, failures of the running rigging, standing
rigging, or hull?

Jim



Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"JimC" wrote
| Regarding the particular quote, it has been reported that the steering
| problem mentioned in that cite was a problem experienced in some early
| 26X models that has since been corrected. (The current model is the Mac
| 26M). Of course, the Mac isn't the only boat in which some owners have
| experienced problems over time. Re the comments of the particular
| technician, negative comments by mechanics about what they are working
| on, or about work done by others, are pretty common in my experience.

They should have recalled it and fixed it on ALL the boats. Are they gonna
let somebody drown first?

You still haven't told us anything about the extent of this problem (if
there was a problem), or about its criticality or seriousness (e.g.,
whether or not a number of boats were disabled on the water). Also, if
there were an ongoing problem, you apparently don't know what MacGregor
did about it. (Neither do I, but I'm not the one bringing the
accusations.) - As a suggestion, you could qualify your statements by
admitting that you really don't know whether there were any serious
problems, or whether they amounted to a general problem affecting a
number of boats, but you did find some negative statements on the
internet from people who you really don't know anything about, talking
about situations that you also don't know much about, etc. Because
that's about all you have come up with Ellen.

| Actually, if you read through the notes in the search you cited, most of
| the Mac owners quoted IN YOUR OWN SEARCH say that they are happy with
| their boats and haven't had any major problems. - See those quoted below
| for example.

Some people ain't too bright.


- - Not too bright? You mean the folks who call the MacGregor a
dangerous pile of junk?


Some people are happy with dangerous things.

| Again, anecdotes aren't the same thing as evidence, and they don't say

People telling other people how their boats broke and almost caused serious damage
or injury are valid to listen to.


Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
boats.


If you only listen to the glowing reports you don't get
the whole picture. Being so biased and defending a flimsy boat just because you have
one is dumb.

Right. And similarly, if you only listen to the few who had major
problems with their Macs, you also don't get the whole picture.

I'm not defending a flimsy boat, and I'm not defending the Mac just
because I have one. As stated a number of times on this ng, I recognize
that the Macs have good and bad points (as do all boats), and that they
don't sail like a conventional fixed keel boat with a long waterline.
What I have said was that, as one of the few Mac owners on the ng, I
feel some obligation to provide a little balance to such discussions
from time to time. And calling it a "flimsy boat," with no meaningful
evidence whatsoever that there are any extensive problems (e.g.,
significant numbers of Macs failing or falling apart because of "flimsy"
construction) is certainly not a balanced statement or a fair treatment
of the subject. Again, how many of the 20,000-plus 26 Macs have failed
or come apart while being sailed Ellen? Do you have reports of over a
thousand? Or, perhaps, over 500? Surely you can cite over 100 serious
Mac accidents in the last several years, Ellen. - No? Then how about 50?

Since you are apparently accusing MacGregor of what is essentially gross
negligence regarding the 26X steering system and of not taking
appropriate corrective measures in a timely manner, you should probably
do some research relative to what actually happened (if it did) before
you post those kinds of accusations on the ng. I happen to be an
attorney, and I would suggest that you might want to consult your own
attorney before you accuse a company of gross negligence re a
potentially hazardous condition such as this ("flimsy construction" that
is putting people's lives at risk), if that's what you're actually saying.

Jim




Cheers,
Ellen

JimC wrote:
You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
sold.

You used to be emphatic the the 26M was a total redesign of the 26X,
and that no conclusion could be derived from the problems of the
earlier boats. Now you're lumping together every Mac ever made (and
the Ventures) and claiming that by their very numbers, they must be
good.

....

Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
boats.

Omigosh! I didn't realize it was that bad! You're saying that 15% of
Mac owners say it was a horrible blunder?

"JimC" wrote
| You don't get it, do you? The Mac 26 in its various embodiments is one
| of the most popular sailboats of this size ever built, with over 30,000
| sold. How many of the 30,000 have had failures of the steering system
| Ellen? Or, for that matter, failures of the running rigging, standing
| rigging, or hull?

Oh my Gawd! It's worse than I thought. 30,000 sold = 30,000 people who don't
really care about their own safety..... (or who won't admit they made a big mistake ;-)

| You still haven't told us anything about the extent of this problem (if
| there was a problem), or about its criticality or seriousness (e.g.,
| whether or not a number of boats were disabled on the water). Also, if
| there were an ongoing problem, you apparently don't know what MacGregor
| did about it. (Neither do I, but I'm not the one bringing the
| accusations.) - As a suggestion, you could qualify your statements by
| admitting that you really don't know whether there were any serious
| problems, or whether they amounted to a general problem affecting a
| number of boats, but you did find some negative statements on the
| internet from people who you really don't know anything about, talking
| about situations that you also don't know much about, etc. Because
| that's about all you have come up with Ellen.

It's not up to me to prove anything to a disbeliever. You've made up your mind.
I think it's revealing how you go on and on about it. It's like your trying to justify it
in your own mind. Talk to any knowledgeable sailor and they'll tell you Magregor 26s
have a history of being flimsy. You don't like facts it's plain. Safety isn't high on
your list. That's plain too.....

| - - Not too bright? You mean the folks who call the MacGregor a
| dangerous pile of junk?

Now your putting words in my mouth. I never said they're a dangerous pile of junk. I just
said they're flimsy. They are flimsy and that's a well known fact.

| Sure are. But when thousands of Mac owners obviously like their boats,
| and when over 85% of 26M owners state that they would buy the boat
| again, it strongly suggests that most Mac owners are happy with their
| boats.

Good grief. People say they like things they really don't like for any number of
reasons. The main reason is they're too embarrassed to admit they made a bad choice.
Garage sales are full of bad choices. Who's honest enough to say *I didn't know
what I was doing. I bought that thing because I didn't know any better. It was a mistake*?
Maybe ten people in 30,000? What a silly way to try to prove something is quality built.


| Right. And similarly, if you only listen to the few who had major
| problems with their Macs, you also don't get the whole picture.

Anybody who hasn't had a problem with a MacGregor 26 just hasn't used it much...

| you post those kinds of accusations on the ng. I happen to be an
| attorney, and I would suggest that you might want to consult your own
| attorney before you accuse a company of gross negligence re a
| potentially hazardous condition such as this ("flimsy construction" that
| is putting people's lives at risk), if that's what you're actually saying.

Attorney? Well, that explains it. Your dumb as a box of rocks. Couldn't get a real
job, huh? I can say anything I want to say about any boat I want to say it about. Nobody
can censure my opinion. I say your biased. I say your stupid. I say you've a flimsy boat.
So sue me....

Cheers,
Ellen