Ellen MacArthur wrote:

"JimC" wrote
| Please point to anything in my note that said that the fact that over
| 30K Macs were sold proves that the quality must be good.

It proves 30,000 people aren't concerned about their own safety.....

Cheers,
Ellen

Cute Ellen. No logic and no evidence, as usual, but still funny.

Jim

Far be it from me to agree with Neal, but he does have a point. Depending on
where you sail, how much a Mac owner relies on brochure information (given
that the vast majority of Mac owners have little experience, you excepted of
course), it could be dangerous. I wouldn't agree that they're unconcerned
about their own safety, but I could claim that they're unaware of the safety
issues.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JimC" wrote in message
. com...


Ellen MacArthur wrote:

"JimC" wrote | Please point to anything in my
note that said that the fact that over | 30K Macs were sold proves that
the quality must be good.

It proves 30,000 people aren't concerned about their own safety.....

Cheers,
Ellen

Cute Ellen. No logic and no evidence, as usual, but still funny.

Jim

Capt. JG wrote:

Never intended to claim that.

You said "great majority of reports from Mac owners are that they are happy
with their boats and would buy another one." Then, you went on to say how
many were sold, quoting a figure of 30K with some part of 15% saying they
were dissatisfied. I'm pointing out that some percentage of McD burger
eaters would say they didn't like the food, but the vast majority are
probably satisfied.

You claim that it's a good quality boat, right. So, citing a satisfaction
percentage of 85% isn't saying much.


Actually, I was being a little conservative regarding the 15% figure. As
explained to Jeff, the 85% applied only to those who liked the boat and
definitely thought they would buy it again given the chance to chose
again. The survey related to owners of the new 26M, released around
2003, and some of the owners hadn't had their boats long enough to make
conclusive judgments about buying it again.

So, although the majority of the responses were highly positive, the 15%
figure included several who said they couldn't predict at this time
whether or not they would buy a Mac again (undecided); several who
hadn't made up their mind yet because they hadn't had the boat long
enough to make a valid judgment; one who said he now realized that he
needed a larger boat; and a very small minority who didn't like the boat
and would look for something else. So, it would seem that the actual
number of positive responses is probably greater than 85%, unless one
assumes that all the 15% will in time decide that they don't like the boat.

But to put it in perspective, how many of the participants on ASA end up
buying the same boat, or boats from the same manufacturer, two times in
a row? From the various discussions on this ng, it seems more common
that they want something else. - So their satisfaction rate may
ultimately be somewhat lower than that of the Mac owners. Hard to say
for certain, of course, but there are certainly lots and lots of
satisfied Mac owners, judging from the discussions on the Mac boards as
compared with the discussions on ASA and other sailing forums.

Jim

Capt. JG wrote:

Far be it from me to agree with Neal, but he does have a point. Depending on
where you sail, how much a Mac owner relies on brochure information (given
that the vast majority of Mac owners have little experience, you excepted of
course), it could be dangerous. I wouldn't agree that they're unconcerned
about their own safety, but I could claim that they're unaware of the safety
issues.


As mentioned, I follow other discussion groups specifically relating to
various series of Mac boats. Safety, reefing, and control of the boats
in heavy weather are major discussion topics on those groups, and my
impression is that many Mac owners are somewhat more conservative than
owners of larger boats such as those on this ng. Although some Mac
owners take their boats offshore routinely (often sailing to Catalina,
the keys, etc.), many seem to prefer not to take their boats out in
severe weather conditions. And those who aren't competent in navigation
and blue water sailing seem to be aware of their limitations and limit
their sailing accordingly. At least that's my impression from following
the Mac discussions.

Jim

Well, I've seen them out on the bay, and they sure don't look like they're
being "conservative" in the conditions. Several times we've sailed by,
watching what appeared to be inexperienced people desperately coping with an
environment beyond their or their boat. I've also seen some docking
maneuvers that frankly scared me. I'm not saying I've only observed the
latter with Macs, but I have observed a higher percentage with Macs.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JimC" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:

Far be it from me to agree with Neal, but he does have a point. Depending
on where you sail, how much a Mac owner relies on brochure information
(given that the vast majority of Mac owners have little experience, you
excepted of course), it could be dangerous. I wouldn't agree that they're
unconcerned about their own safety, but I could claim that they're
unaware of the safety issues.


As mentioned, I follow other discussion groups specifically relating to
various series of Mac boats. Safety, reefing, and control of the boats in
heavy weather are major discussion topics on those groups, and my
impression is that many Mac owners are somewhat more conservative than
owners of larger boats such as those on this ng. Although some Mac owners
take their boats offshore routinely (often sailing to Catalina, the keys,
etc.), many seem to prefer not to take their boats out in severe weather
conditions. And those who aren't competent in navigation and blue water
sailing seem to be aware of their limitations and limit their sailing
accordingly. At least that's my impression from following the Mac
discussions.

Jim

I don't think you can make that comparison. My guess is that the typical
person who owns a sailboat will keep their boat until such time as their
needs/wants change or the boat becomes unusable. For example, I used to own
a Cal 20. While I liked it, I found that it wasn't meeting my needs. So, I
bought a Sabre. I might buy another, but I wouldn't necessarily do so. I
can't imagine why I would in fact. I would more likely buy something
similar, probably larger, but I'm hopeful that would be years away. I would
have more experience and different needs almost for sure.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JimC" wrote in message
m...


Capt. JG wrote:

Never intended to claim that.

You said "great majority of reports from Mac owners are that they are
happy with their boats and would buy another one." Then, you went on to
say how many were sold, quoting a figure of 30K with some part of 15%
saying they were dissatisfied. I'm pointing out that some percentage of
McD burger eaters would say they didn't like the food, but the vast
majority are probably satisfied.

You claim that it's a good quality boat, right. So, citing a satisfaction
percentage of 85% isn't saying much.


Actually, I was being a little conservative regarding the 15% figure. As
explained to Jeff, the 85% applied only to those who liked the boat and
definitely thought they would buy it again given the chance to chose
again. The survey related to owners of the new 26M, released around 2003,
and some of the owners hadn't had their boats long enough to make
conclusive judgments about buying it again.

So, although the majority of the responses were highly positive, the 15%
figure included several who said they couldn't predict at this time
whether or not they would buy a Mac again (undecided); several who hadn't
made up their mind yet because they hadn't had the boat long enough to
make a valid judgment; one who said he now realized that he needed a
larger boat; and a very small minority who didn't like the boat and would
look for something else. So, it would seem that the actual number of
positive responses is probably greater than 85%, unless one assumes that
all the 15% will in time decide that they don't like the boat.

But to put it in perspective, how many of the participants on ASA end up
buying the same boat, or boats from the same manufacturer, two times in a
row? From the various discussions on this ng, it seems more common that
they want something else. - So their satisfaction rate may ultimately be
somewhat lower than that of the Mac owners. Hard to say for certain, of
course, but there are certainly lots and lots of satisfied Mac owners,
judging from the discussions on the Mac boards as compared with the
discussions on ASA and other sailing forums.

Jim

Capt. JG wrote:
Well, I've seen them out on the bay, and they sure don't look like they're
being "conservative" in the conditions. Several times we've sailed by,
watching what appeared to be inexperienced people desperately coping with an
environment beyond their or their boat. I've also seen some docking
maneuvers that frankly scared me. I'm not saying I've only observed the
latter with Macs, but I have observed a higher percentage with Macs.


It's probably true that many Mac owners aren't as experienced as owners
of larger boats, since more Macs are sold as first boats than Sabres,
Valiants, Packets, etc. - This may account for what you were seeing.
It's also true that, because of their high freeboard and lack of a
weighted keel, the skipper has to be a little more careful when bringing
them into a slip or dock during windy conditions. On the other hand, I
don't think you will see a large percentage of them venturing out
venturing out on blue water in heavy weather conditions.

Jim

Capt. JG wrote:

Never intended to claim that.

You said "great majority of reports from Mac owners are that they are happy
with their boats and would buy another one." Then, you went on to say how
many were sold, quoting a figure of 30K with some part of 15% saying they
were dissatisfied. I'm pointing out that some percentage of McD burger
eaters would say they didn't like the food, but the vast majority are
probably satisfied.

You claim that it's a good quality boat, right. So, citing a satisfaction
percentage of 85% isn't saying much.


I think I answered this earlier, but if not, the 15% included several
who said they couldn't predict at this time whether or not they would
buy a Mac again (undecided); several who hadn't made up their mind yet
because they hadn't had the boat long enough; one who said he now
realized that he needed a larger boat; and a very small minority who
didn't like the boat and would look for something else. So, the actual
number of positive responses is probably greater than 85%, unless one
assumes that all the 15% will in time decide that they don't like the
boat. The survey was of Mac 26M owners, not the 30,000-plus Mac owners.

To put it in perspective, how many of the participants on ASA would tell
you that, given a choice, they would definitely buy another boat of the
same kind? As you mention, many would probably say that they might want
to look at other boats with features they might like better.

Jim

"JimC" wrote in message
...


Capt. JG wrote:
Well, I've seen them out on the bay, and they sure don't look like
they're being "conservative" in the conditions. Several times we've
sailed by, watching what appeared to be inexperienced people desperately
coping with an environment beyond their or their boat. I've also seen
some docking maneuvers that frankly scared me. I'm not saying I've only
observed the latter with Macs, but I have observed a higher percentage
with Macs.


It's probably true that many Mac owners aren't as experienced as owners of
larger boats, since more Macs are sold as first boats than Sabres,
Valiants, Packets, etc. - This may account for what you were seeing. It's
also true that, because of their high freeboard and lack of a weighted
keel, the skipper has to be a little more careful when bringing them into
a slip or dock during windy conditions. On the other hand, I don't think
you will see a large percentage of them venturing out venturing out on
blue water in heavy weather conditions.

Jim

I hope they don't. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Well, I would.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JimC" wrote in message
m...


Capt. JG wrote:

Never intended to claim that.

You said "great majority of reports from Mac owners are that they are
happy with their boats and would buy another one." Then, you went on to
say how many were sold, quoting a figure of 30K with some part of 15%
saying they were dissatisfied. I'm pointing out that some percentage of
McD burger eaters would say they didn't like the food, but the vast
majority are probably satisfied.

You claim that it's a good quality boat, right. So, citing a satisfaction
percentage of 85% isn't saying much.


I think I answered this earlier, but if not, the 15% included several who
said they couldn't predict at this time whether or not they would buy a
Mac again (undecided); several who hadn't made up their mind yet because
they hadn't had the boat long enough; one who said he now realized that he
needed a larger boat; and a very small minority who didn't like the boat
and would look for something else. So, the actual number of positive
responses is probably greater than 85%, unless one assumes that all the
15% will in time decide that they don't like the boat. The survey was of
Mac 26M owners, not the 30,000-plus Mac owners.

To put it in perspective, how many of the participants on ASA would tell
you that, given a choice, they would definitely buy another boat of the
same kind? As you mention, many would probably say that they might want to
look at other boats with features they might like better.

Jim