Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail, and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap it
so that the experience was not authentic.

Bart wrote:

Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail, and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap it
so that the experience was not authentic.

Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.

Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.

"Bart" .@. wrote in message
...
Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago
this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything
about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in
charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail,
and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap
it
so that the experience was not authentic.


I didn't know the CG had the authority for something like
that.
Don't they still train recruits on the Eagle? I guess only
a handful, huh?
At least the Navy still sails. Saw them racing their 44s
down in Annapolis.

Scotty

Walt wrote:

Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.

Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.

You have a point Walt. I've seen that sort of thing happen.

On the other hand, sometimes, people do like putting on a show.
A schooner with topsails set is a pretty sight--it should not be
discouraged. And certainly not in light wind situations.

The skipper should be making such decisions based on wind
strength and point of sail--not because of a CG edict.

Walt wrote:
Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.


Depends very much on the boat. I don't generaly go on such
things... the last one was a skipjack charter... but some of
the boats are more tourista-y than others.


Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.


A lot of times, those touristy "sailing" excursions cover
the sound of the engine by playing Jimmy Buffet real loud.


Bart wrote:
You have a point Walt. I've seen that sort of thing happen.

On the other hand, sometimes, people do like putting on a show.
A schooner with topsails set is a pretty sight--it should not be
discouraged. And certainly not in light wind situations.

The skipper should be making such decisions based on wind
strength and point of sail--not because of a CG edict.


It's also a question of crew... are they busy running around
handing out funny-colored drinks with little umbrellas? Or
are they actually sailors?

DSK

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.




Charlie Morgan wrote:
It's actually a function of how many passengers the boat is legally
allowed to carry, and how that much all that moving weight up on deck
will affect stability in a boat that was originally designed and built
to carry non-moving cargo down lower.

If you're talking only about original surviving vessels,
then they're not designed for a big deck load of people, sure.

OTOH if you jammed the deck solid with people, that still
wouldn't weigh as much as the ballast in most such boats
(human flesh is less dense than iron, rock, or even
sandbags). And the leverage of a few tons of people is not
going to be the same as several thousand square feet of sail
in the wind, fifty or more feet up a mast.

Then there are the very large number of such boats that are
modern replicas of working craft. They are designed from
scratch as such, often substituting modern materials (such
hi tech stuff as lead ballast) for improved safety & stability.


... I thought you and Bart claimed
to know something about boats.


Yep.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..


(human flesh is less dense than iron, rock, or even
sandbags).

Except 'Charlie', he's more dense than a bag of hammers.

SBV

DSK wrote:
It's also a question of crew... are they busy running around
handing out funny-colored drinks with little umbrellas? Or
are they actually sailors?

Now this is an interesting topic--the crews. They can be divided
into two groups--small businesses and non-profits.

Of the two groups, I like the small business owners/operators the
best. These are sailors like you and I that fell in love with a
schooner and bought it and perhaps made it into a business or
part-time business.

On the other hand non-profits are run by that useless appendage
known as a non-profit-executive. These people are too worried
about making enough money to cover their own salaries, that they
tend to treat their skippers and crew like pawns.

These crews seem to be more out side the industry than in it.
Perhaps when you have a group of people spending so much
time together, you don't need to socialize or interact without
others in the sailing industry.

With a few excpetions, in the times I've talked to crews of
non-profit type tall-ships, they tend to be somewhat closed to
conversation--even rude--perhaps it's because when I wanted
to talk about sailing either they didn't understand what I was
talking about, or else they copped a superior attitude because
their boat was bigger or something. Perhaps they were just
too used to dealing with the public and viewed everyone as
a mark.

One group got a bit ****ed at me when I pointed out the inflatable
with the 50 HP outboard ruined the effect of the classic look.

Another time I was asking about rigging conventions--which side
the peak and throat halyards were located, etc, and got a snide
response and that was it.

Crew are often not particularly good sailors, although there
are exceptions. Many of these crew positions are filled with
free volunteers or filled at very low wages. Good sailors in Mate
positions are those looking for sea-time on higher tonnage vessels .
Once they get that and a license, they move on to better paying
situations.

The less experienced volunteers are really more tour guides, nanny's,
and lonely hearts than sailors. What serious sailor wants to dress up
like a pirate every day?

They only time I got friendly with a crew was one that was berthed
near me, and after I sailed circles around him racing Soling's, he let
me steer and dock "his" schooner, and taught me one interesting trick
about
docking--for which I'm exceedingly grateful. I reciprocated by letting
him
use our clubs Soling's whenever he wanted--he was a good sailor but his

sail trim needed a little improvement--you can understand
why--schooners
tend to have old blown out sails and they are not particularly
sensitive to
sail trim, off the wind.

Regarding the skippers: They tend to be very, very good, and they
are always licensed. The vessels are inspected, so they know
their stuff, hoist day shapes--when no one else does, and manage
their crews very well. I have not met one yet that was not highly
qualified. They still tend to be underpaid but commanding a tall-ship
is
it's own reward. IMHO, Mate's tend to be good sailors too.

Bart wrote:

With a few excpetions, in the times I've talked to crews of
non-profit type tall-ships, they tend to be somewhat closed to
conversation--even rude--perhaps it's because when I wanted
to talk about sailing either they didn't understand what I was
talking about, or else they copped a superior attitude because
their boat was bigger or something. Perhaps they were just
too used to dealing with the public and viewed everyone as
a mark.


Or maybe they just didn't want to waste their time talking to a pompous
know-it-all blowhard.

//Walt

Dave wrote:

, Walt speaking of Bart, wrote:


Or maybe they just didn't want to waste their time talking to a pompous
know-it-all blowhard.

You carry a real inferiority chip around on your shoulder, don't you
Walt.

Perhaps. If you read Bart's post, he describes going on to one of these
tourist boats, busting them for having an inauthentic dinghy, implying
that they cleat their halyards on the "wrong" side, and calling the crew
not particularly good sailors. If you behave like this, the crew is
not going to want to talk to you. You don't need to read all of Dale
Carnagie's books to realize that.

Now, I don't know Bart well enough to know whether he actually is a
pompous know-it-all blowhard, but from his description he seemed to be
acting like one. Do you disagree?

BTW, I am perfectly capable of acting like a pompous know-it-all
blowhard myself at times. So I know one when I see one. (c:

//Walt