Capt. Rob wrote:
Never did I say I was hard on the wind or beating, which is why it's
totally believable that I topped the polars for VMG on that POS.

Wrong - this is exactly why its totally impossible that you VMG to
Windward was better than optimal.


You're still going under the assumption that the polars remain current.
Most people would agree that polars are a starting point.

Wrong. I'll grant you that polars have been refined upward, mainly
because new hi-tech sails outperform the old assumptions. But polars
made now are quite accurate for todays boats. Do you really think
todays designers are off by 15% on their speed predictions?

Once again "windward" does not suggest that I was clawing my way
upwind. As I said we were NOT beating.

All the more reason why your VMG to Windward could not have been that
high. Are you saying that beating to windward is not the best way to
go to windward, a close reach is better? (Actually, that's true on my
boat, but that's why my optimal VMG is 50 degrees in light air,
instead of 40.)

Actually he's claimed he beats his polars upwind with his recut main by
about 10%. But he also thinks the original polars were far to
conservative. Who's to say the same isn't true for the 35s5?

Me. And I thought you said you had old sails.

Actually, my argument hinges on the fact that the polars of almost
every boat your size has an optimal VMG to Windward of well under 6
knots. Further, you claimed that you weren't even going upward, that
you weren't hard on the wind.

Nope, as I already established windward does not always mean hard on
the wind. It's ANY POS above a beam reach.

And yet you fail to grasp that when you sail lower than the "optimal
point" your VMG to Windward goes down. What part of not sailing at
the "optimal point" do you not understand?

....


Is a Garmin handheld inferior to my charting GPS??? Who knew?


Yes, but the subtlety of this you will not understand. The GPS by
itself does not know where the wind is, and therefore cannot report
the VMG with respect to the wind direction. Thus, when your friend's
GPS displayed VMG, it was not VMG to Windward. If however, you have
an integrated system, then the wind direction is known, and a pretty
fair guess of the true VMG can be computed.



No. Its not an exaggeration, its called basic math. At 5 knots
you're doing 12 minutes per mile, or 720 seconds. At 6 knots, that's
600 seconds per mile. That's a difference of 120 second per mile,
which translates directly into 120 points on the PHRF rating. Maybe
its a bit less if you really get 5.2 knots, but its still up near 100
points.

All based on your still solid assumption that we were at 35 degress or
something like that...which we were not.

Nope. I made no such assumption. I only might have said that the
best VMG you could obtain was at about 40 degree, if you were sailing
lower than that your VMG to Windward would fall off.

You've failed to make any
argument at all because I'm not claiming 6 knots at 35 degrees. I said
we were making 6 knots VMG to windward and you wrongly assumed that
this meant we were beating.

Nope. I made no assumption. The real basis for my claim is that I
don't think your boat, without new sails and a racing crew, could
achieve 6 knots VMG to Windward under any circumstance.

Can the 35s5 make 6 knots of VMG to
windward, which is ANY POS above a beam reach. How about 45%? Hmmmmjm?

Nope. In fact, you'd have a much better shot of doing it at 38-40
degrees.

Better have another look at the video and try to look at the trim of
the sails.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RivCUMzy4xc

At 45 degrees, you'd have to be doing 8.6 knots (actually 9 knots,
including leeway) to have a VMG to Windward of 6 knots.

I know 9 knots. I often sail at 9 knots. And you weren't doing 9 knots.


FYI, when beating, the genny is sheeted in well inside the lifelines.

So you were footed well off. How much do you figure - 50 degrees? 55
degrees?



So what you're saying is that a quality skipper can make a Westsail
32
go upwind faster, that is, get better boat speed, than an average
skipper on a 35s5.


Nope....the Westsail is far more locked into it's performance limits
than a performance boat.

So lets look at it the other way - are you claiming you can go upwind
as fast as a Frers 45, or a Swan 51?

BTW, do you know what a 12-meter polar looks like? It says that the
optimal VMG to windward is about 5.5 knots, at about 42 degrees in 14
knots wind.



It can stay close because in fact the differences are pretty small,
only a few tenths. So when you sail nearby you can deceive yourself
into thinking you're going almost as fast.

I've sailed side by side with a 36.7, Jeff. It's faster upwind, but not
in the way that my 35s5 is faster than a Catalina 36 upwind. Small
differences that matter more for racers.


Isn't that just what I said?


So who's the liar?

You are. I never mentioned my boat in the comparison with the 35s5. You
said that I did, The E35 is rated at 135 here. Do you think Bart's
freind is literally sailing circles around Beneteau's, Jeff?

I don't know about that. I do know that you said "Any First (which I
assume includes yours) would toast an Ericson 35." Since the ratings
are only a few points different, I don't think "toast" is the correct
verb. Especially when you're claiming that a good helmsman can
suddenly make a difference of 100 points!


Actually, we all assumed he was talking about the sailing ability of
Benny owners, but you seemed to have missed that.

Oh, so you believe THAT as well? I see. Sailors around here don't
usually worry about such things.

But what about you?


Actually, if you knew anything, you'd understand that the Nonsuch
rig
is quite adjustable. Why don't you explain to us how often you adjust
your outhaul or topping lift while underway?

Is that how Nonsuch promoted it's boats?

Actually, yes. Though it may not have been part of the original
design priority. The adjustable rig was actually a bit of a
breakthrough in wishbone technology. I routinely did major sail shape
adjustments while underway, sometimes several times an hour. Have
you done any this year? How often do you change the outhaul?

Do you know who Anthony
Serling is and how is Nonsuch sank in the early 90's crossing the
Atlantic? He's a good friend of mine.

The only sinking I've heard about involved an owner who panicked and
started throwing gear overboard, including his hatch boards. There
was also a dismasted N30 that was abandoned and found a year later
being used as a fishing boat in the Caribbean, having drifted over a
thousand miles.


Perhaps I should be more explicit: The mark has to be directly to
windward. Not slightly to windward of your centerline. There is a
huge difference.

Agreed. I'm giving you the bouy location to best of my ability. I was
not standing behind the pedestal to line up the mark.

Then your understanding is faulty. But, you haven't been very
reliable in the past.


And one more time you're claiming that you weren't even close to the
wind, you weren't sheeted in, and yet you were going upwind faster
than the polars predict!

About .5 knot faster than what's shown on the polars

So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow?

In clip #2 it's directly to windward. Do you know what that means?

I know what it means. Do you?

And why did you insist it was off the bow?:

"So let's get this straight, Jeff. We're sailing upwind, but certainly
not beating. Our knotmeter is showing over seven knots nudging near 8
at times. We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10
degrees off our starboard bow. GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating
between 5.6 and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark."

Are you sure this mark was actually attached to the bottom?


Nor was it far away.

It was NOT far away and THERE you have a bone to seriously pick, but
nowhere else since I never said we were beating.

If it was really close than your whole argument is bogus. It was to
be at least far enough away so that the angle doesn't change during a
reasonable measuring period, say one minute. Since you're doing about
200 yards a minute, if you're within a quarter mile there's no way it
can be used to determine the VMG to Windward.

We're probably just below what most folks would call a close reach in
clip #2. VMG was .5 faster than reported by the French magazine and
that was in the early 90's with stock sails.

Just below a close reach would be about 60 degrees off the true wind.
So are you now saying you were doing 12 knots through the water?

I know 12 knots. I sail at 12 knots. And you weren't doing 12 knots.