So you're saying you were not "hard on the wind"? And yet you
exceeded the optimal VMG to Windward by 15%??? You still don't
understand.


Never did I say I was hard on the wind or beating, which is why it's
totally believable that I topped the polars for VMG on that POS.




Yes, it is. You just don't get it. Its like Road & Track said a
certain car did the quarter in 5 seconds, and you claimed you did it
in 4 seconds. In the snow.


Not at all. And Road and Track has gotten a second more/less on cars
compared to other rags. Such tests, along with Polars are rough
estimates at best.


By "rough" you mean off by a few percent. Not 15%. The biggest
variance comes from sails, because the new technology can go beyond
the assumptions of the VPP.

You're still going under the assumption that the polars remain current.
Most people would agree that polars are a starting point.

However, if your sails are old, you loose
any advantage there. And you've already admitted you weren't pointing
at close to the optimal angle, so you lost any extra pointing ability.


Once again "windward" does not suggest that I was clawing my way
upwind. As I said we were NOT beating.


"Clobber" going upwind means beating by 2 or 3 percent, not 15%.
And
he probably meant off the wind.

Actually he's claimed he beats his polars upwind with his recut main by
about 10%. But he also thinks the original polars were far to
conservative. Who's to say the same isn't true for the 35s5?


This is another point you fail to grasp. While some boats can
frequently exceed their "theoretical limit" off the wind, upwind it is
much more difficult to beat.


Actually, my argument hinges on the fact that the polars of almost
every boat your size has an optimal VMG to Windward of well under 6
knots. Further, you claimed that you weren't even going upward, that
you weren't hard on the wind.

Nope, as I already established windward does not always mean hard on
the wind. It's ANY POS above a beam reach.

Further, you even claimed that the mark
used for the VMG measurement was off the bow.


Again this was for clip #3.

And finally, you're
claiming that the VMG was measured with GPS, and a handheld unit at
that.


Is a Garmin handheld inferior to my charting GPS??? Who knew?


No. Its not an exaggeration, its called basic math. At 5 knots
you're doing 12 minutes per mile, or 720 seconds. At 6 knots, that's
600 seconds per mile. That's a difference of 120 second per mile,
which translates directly into 120 points on the PHRF rating. Maybe
its a bit less if you really get 5.2 knots, but its still up near 100
points.

All based on your still solid assumption that we were at 35 degress or
something like that...which we were not. You've failed to make any
argument at all because I'm not claiming 6 knots at 35 degrees. I said
we were making 6 knots VMG to windward and you wrongly assumed that
this meant we were beating. Can the 35s5 make 6 knots of VMG to
windward, which is ANY POS above a beam reach. How about 45%? Hmmmmjm?
Better have another look at the video and try to look at the trim of
the sails.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RivCUMzy4xc

FYI, when beating, the genny is sheeted in well inside the lifelines.


So what you're saying is that a quality skipper can make a Westsail
32
go upwind faster, that is, get better boat speed, than an average
skipper on a 35s5.


Nope....the Westsail is far more locked into it's performance limits
than a performance boat.


It can stay close because in fact the differences are pretty small,
only a few tenths. So when you sail nearby you can deceive yourself
into thinking you're going almost as fast.

I've sailed side by side with a 36.7, Jeff. It's faster upwind, but not
in the way that my 35s5 is faster than a Catalina 36 upwind. Small
differences that matter more for racers.


So who's the liar?


You are. I never mentioned my boat in the comparison with the 35s5. You
said that I did, The E35 is rated at 135 here. Do you think Bart's
freind is literally sailing circles around Beneteau's, Jeff?


Actually, we all assumed he was talking about the sailing ability of

Benny owners, but you seemed to have missed that.

Oh, so you believe THAT as well? I see. Sailors around here don't
usually worry about such things.


Actually, if you knew anything, you'd understand that the Nonsuch
rig
is quite adjustable. Why don't you explain to us how often you adjust
your outhaul or topping lift while underway?

Is that how Nonsuch promoted it's boats? Do you know who Anthony
Serling is and how is Nonsuch sank in the early 90's crossing the
Atlantic? He's a good friend of mine.


Perhaps I should be more explicit: The mark has to be directly to
windward. Not slightly to windward of your centerline. There is a
huge difference.


Agreed. I'm giving you the bouy location to best of my ability. I was
not standing behind the pedestal to line up the mark.

And one more time you're claiming that you weren't even close to the

wind, you weren't sheeted in, and yet you were going upwind faster
than the polars predict!


About .5 knot faster than what's shown on the polars.


So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow?

In clip #2 it's directly to windward. Do you know what that means?


Nor was it far away.


It was NOT far away and THERE you have a bone to seriously pick, but
nowhere else since I never said we were beating.


So once again you're claiming that even while on a close reach you
had
a faster VMG to Windward than the polar predicts or the touted review.


We're probably just below what most folks would call a close reach in
clip #2. VMG was .5 faster than reported by the French magazine and
that was in the early 90's with stock sails.


You simply don't understand the meaning of the terms.


Well then...if that's true, why bang your head against the wall, sir?
It seems I have just enough grasp to keep you on your toes. You're
welcome.


Gilly has gone over to the dark side!

Yeah. I think I prefer he slips back. I'm perfectly fine without him.



RB
35s5
NY