Hey Oz--
 

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_19/b3680008.htm

Larry Ellison's Brush with Death aboard Sayonara
''We certainly thought it was possible we wouldn't make it''

For Oracle Corp. Chairman Lawrence J. Ellison, competing head-to-head
with the likes of Microsoft Chairman William H. Gates III in the
roiling software industry isn't enough of a thrill. For extra kicks, he
races yachts on the high seas. But when a typhoon struck during a
sailing race off the coast of Australia in December, 1998, it was
anything but fun for Ellison or his compatriots. Six sailors from other
boats died. While the worst injuries sustained on his 78-foot Sayonara
were broken bones, Ellison was shaken by the experience. He went on to
win that race, and he has sailed competitively since. But he has rarely
talked in detail about what it was like to nearly lose everything. We
asked if the experience had changed him. Here is Ellison's answer:

It shook up all 24 of us. That crew was the same crew that was on Black
Magic, which won the America's Cup for New Zealand [in 1995]. It's an
amazingly professional crew. All those guys were shook up. I've known
for a long time that life is glorious and fragile and short. This
reemphasized it -- it didn't really change me.

It was amazing. We certainly thought it was possible we wouldn't make
it. The waves were 40-feet high. They were vertical. They were walls.
If you didn't wear a cable, you'd just be blown off the back of the
boat. There were four guys with broken bones. We were driving onto this
thing. If you didn't let go of the wheel, it would be pulled off the
pedestal. You let go and grabbed back onto the wheel.

UP AN ELEVATOR. You'd just bury yourself in the wave. It was like going
up an elevator. Normally, the dangerous part of a wave is sliding down
the back. You start surfing. You can actually turn side-on and roll the
boat. But we didn't have that problem. The back of the wave was so
steep that you'd just exit the wave and fall straight down like a ball
in an elevator shaft -- one, one thousand; two, one thousand; three,
one thousand. Crash! It was like being dropped off a four-story
building onto asphalt every 45 seconds. That happened for three hours.
It was very bad.

We thought we'd break the bow, lose a rudder. Any number of things
could have caused us to sink. We had such a huge lead in the race. We
were far off the coast. If we went into the water, the closest thing
would have been a Navy frigate 24 hours away. We would have had about
an hour of life in water that cold.

There wasn't palpable fear on the boat. You're so busy doing your job
that there's no time to think about dying. The end was incredible. No
sleep for three days. No eating for three days. You arrive in the
Derwent. It's a river on the way up to the capital of Tasmania, Hobart.
It's a short sail up there. It's a beautiful sunrise. The sky is pink
and amber and Prussian blue. It's gorgeous. There's heather on the
hills. It's a Scottish community. A small boat pulls up next to you,
and with bagpipes, greets the winner. Incredibly somber bagpipe music
is playing. Gorgeous sunrise. Beautiful.

TOUGH GUYS CRYING. It's something I'll never forget in my entire life.
The glory, the wonder of being alive. The boat coasts in. The thing
about New Zealand sailors -- most American sailors are kind of preppy,
wealthy kids, but in New Zealand there are more sailboats than there
are cars. Everyone sails. It's a blue-collar sport. These are tough
guys -- rugby players, car mechanics. They're professional sailors.
They're a little bit older: mid-30s. They were expressionless from
exhaustion.

We arrive at the dock and everyone sees their wife or girlfriend. There
was not a single dry eye among all those very tough guys. It was an
amazing moment. I'll never forget the experience. And the explanation
contained therein of what it means to be a human being. It was
incredible. But philosophically changed? Have I changed my life? Do I
do things differently? No. Not really. I sure love those guys though.

By Steve Hamm in New York

Hey Oz--
 

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ellison is, I've heard, a good sailor. He certainly knows
how to build a boat. He is smart. I would not place him
in that pompous category. And I don't blame him a bit for
not coming back,

Nor do I, Bart. Larry E. won the Hobart in '98, and considering the typical
lousy weather every year during that event, I'd pass on it, too. One win
would suffice. There are other mountains to scale.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

Don't you think it would have been more fun
to surf that boat downwind in that storm?

I think they could have kept it between the
waves. Obviously, there would be less apparent
wind too.

It would have been interesting to know how his
description would have changed if they had
changed tactics.

Maxprop wrote:
Nor do I, Bart. Larry E. won the Hobart in '98, and considering the typical
lousy weather every year during that event, I'd pass on it, too. One win
would suffice. There are other mountains to scale.

Hey Oz--
 

Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Considering the force of the wind and the speed at which boats plunged off
those monstrous, steep waves, the forces applied to hull and rig were
exponentially greater than what might be normally encountered in typical
"bad" weather.


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the
design or build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be
stressed, any small (by which I mean 50 tons & less)
cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse. As you
pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that
fleet sank.

Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long
experience. They were sailing superbly equipped boats with
skilled crews. Once the game becomes survival (which becamse
apparent to all fairly soon), then if would have been better
to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a drogue,
they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a
while at the peak of the storm).

Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

Hey Oz--
 

Joe wrote:
DSK wrote:
Maxprop wrote:
I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.

Of course they're not.

The only boat that is, is a submarine.

Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh
opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu

Hardly a racing vessel but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.

In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.
Better I'd motored away from the storm and say screw the race, it's
just a game no one is at risk unless they put themselfs at risk.

Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.

Joe


DSK

Hey Oz--
 

The only boat that is, is a submarine.


Joe wrote:
Wrong
http://community.webshots.com/album/45412311UPoGTh

opps try this shot~
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/107...38501851yDORqu


You been paying attention at all? Did you read my post about
rescuing guys off an oil platform in the North Sea? That was
the time waves were ripping 2" welded fittings off the deck.





Hardly a racing vessel

Ya think?
I wonder what the PHRF rating is?

but designed to deal with 60-80 ftes in a
regular basis.
Hence the North Sea Stacks, armored glass, 4" thick bows
ect..ect.ect...


Stronger than a U.S. Navy vessel, probably.



Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally
considered a gung-ho racing tactic ;)


Sounds like the smart ones. Nothing at all to be ashamed off. They did
not put the guys that have to go out and rescue people at risk.


A lot of boats were too far out into the Bass Strait to come
back and anchor. Probably would have if they could have.



In the condition described I would be bare pole and on a drouge on
RedCloud.


You must not be paying attention, or else your Boosprit
gland is being hyperactive.

These guys weren't dumb. These guys weren't ill-equipped. If
they would have been better off under drogue, they would
have been.

Get it thru your head Joe... the sea is powerful enough to
destroy any vessel. Storms have sunk U.S. Navy warships...
not often, thank goodness. But to think that you're
bulletproof and everybody else is a pussy is very stupid.


Did everyone ignore the weather forecast? You would think these boats
had the best in weather tracking devices the world has to offer.


Yeah, like the weather forecast is always 100% accurate.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 00:45:53 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98
Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that. Sayonara was fast enough
to
beat the worst of the storm. The heavy Winston Churchill wasn't, sadly.

Max

That's true.
IIRC, Sayonara was the furthest boat out to sea and ahead of the
fleet.
The main inpact of the storm slipped inside her and caught the bulk of
the fleet.

Considering the beating that Sayonara took, the rest of the fleet must have
thought they'd died and gone to hell.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...


And those tremendous forces were due to conditions, not the design or
build of the boats. *Any* vessel would be stressed, any small (by which I
mean 50 tons & less) cruising sailboat probably would have fared worse.

I'm not sure how you can infer this. What's your rationale?

As you pointed out, the closest thing to a crab-crusher in that fleet
sank.

She was a wooden boat, for starters. And apparently some planks were sprung
and leaking prior to the race. She should never have left port.


Most of the skippers in that fleet were sailors of long experience. They
were sailing superbly equipped boats with skilled crews. Once the game
becomes survival (which becamse apparent to all fairly soon), then if
would have been better to lie-to a sea anchor, or run bare poles with a
drogue, they'd have done that (IIRC a few did use drogues for a while at
the peak of the storm).

I'm doubtful that even lying ahull or riding a sea anchor would have
provided much benefit in a storm of that magnitude.


Many boats ran back for cover and anchored.... not generally considered a
gung-ho racing tactic ;)

But an infinitely preferable survival tactic. I'd have been pulling for the
cut and run option, has I been aboard.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
"Joe" wrote
.... Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.


Sounds exciting. One thing I have noticed about most
shrimpers, they do believe in have good pumps aboard.


It was an ice boat, so had massave PTO pumps off the main. The
Capt/owner about 6-8 mo later was in the engine room and the boat
exploded, So bad an explosion it blew the decks and cabin off the
boat..needless to say he died a few days later...he was Terry's first
husband. She said the boat was 85 ft not 60.


Maxprop wrote:
I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

Interesting way to put it. But it also reveals a fallacy in
thinking about the issue of structural integrity of boats
(or any vehicle).

In basic physics, when you're figuring out how much force is
generated (or absorbed in an impact), velocity is squared.
In boats this means that going 10 knots generates four times
the force of going 5 knots. Another side of the problem is
that impact loads are spread over time... hitting waves
faster means higher peak loads on the structure.

So maxi racers are far from underbuilt. They are built very
very strong, if not they would crumble from the forces
generated in driving them under normal sailing conditions.
Successful racing boats are generally built much stronger
than cruising boats... they are also subjected to
exponentially higher forces. This is why the structural
failures on racing boats tend to be more sudden &
dramatic... like the difference between a 2400psi express
header multi-fuel boiler and 60psi fire tube boiler with a
wood furnace built into one end.

Tell that to team Philips remember that huge cat?

Joe

How many cruising boats sailed through the '98 Hobart Race
storm?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King