Hey Oz--
 

Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe. You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves. Many had 40' of
breaker on top. They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

DSK wrote:
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.


.... By converse reasoning it would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.



Joe wrote:
Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain. He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together.

Talk is cheap, Joe.

What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.

The size is not as important and spacing IMO

Many had 40' of
breaker on top.

well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.


They were unusually steep because of a
countering current... no surfing, you'd just fall from the
crest straight down. From what I have read, it was a more
violent storm than a U.S. east coast (or gulf) hurricane.

Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.


Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.

Joe



DSK

Hey Oz--
 

Talk is cheap, Joe.


Joe wrote:
What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.


Or guys who like to call themselves "Captain" because they
can wrote a check.

... You mention how you are so manly & brave
with 60 foot waves; these were 90'+ waves.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO



Right,and by all reports the '98 Hobart storm (as mentioned
earlier) were viciously steep & close together. The worst
were generated over a shallow area with a tidal current
running counter to the wind.





Rita produced 98 fters and Cat 5 winds.


One anecdote from the '98 Hobart storm was that one of the
rescue helicopters was flying low, trying to spot one of the
yachts, had SAR crewman leaning out the hatch looking
down... suddenly he pulled his head in and yelled "PULL UP!"
The pilot, seeing 110' on his altimeter, did so anyway by
reflex and felt the top of a wave grab the wheels as it went
under them.

Generally, people were too busy to take accurate
measurements of waves. Once they get higher than the mast,
what's the point?



You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

Now there, I agree totally.

And that is my whole beef...There are some things which cannot be
learned quickly or bought, and time.....which is all we have.......
must be paid heavily for their acquiring.


Yep. But on the other hand, gaining mastery of a difficult &
complex subject is time well spent.

DSK

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:
We plan to take another look at the boat we're considering, possibly this
coming weekend. If so, I'll take a few shots of Sayonara and email 'em
to you.


OK
It would be interesting to hear a boat shopping report too.

If it comes to fruition, I'll post a full report. No point getting the cart
before the horse. We have several hurdles to clear with the current owner
before it's a done deal.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...

Maxprop wrote:


I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

I assure you the layfette Skiff is lighter buildt than an Maxi,

Hmmm. I'd doubt that. I saw the photo you provided, and the skiff looked
to be a work boat, which are generally built for the long haul = stout.

infact
as I mentioned I was out with the owner right before I bought the boat,
as the seas buildt he wanted to transfer to an oil rig and ditch the
boat,

I'd have thought that would be more a decision based upon length,
displacement, and seakindliness than construction integrity.

Knowing it was going to extreamly dangerious to try to get on a
rig I told him then and there if he did I was going to claim salvage on
the boat and not give him a penney for it...

Yup. I would have done similarly under the circumstances.

I've been through hurricane-force winds and
very closely-spaced seas of 30' or more on a 767' bulk freighter
(sistership
to the ill-fated Edmund Fitzgerald), but never felt that my life was in
jeopardy.


Why would you in 30 ftrs on a 767ft ship?

My wife and I booked passage on a bulk freighter out of Burns Harbor, IN,
upbound for Duluth, MN, two years ago. It was an amazing experience, but
the weather got quite nasty on Lake Superior for the last third of the trip.
Even a few experienced crewmen became ill.


Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm. By converse reasoning it
would
appear that he was convinced that his life was over, at least a portion
of
the time. I'm sure that would be a most depressing revelation.

Well then Larry's a putz, and a failure as a Captain.

That may very well be. Many said he had no business being on that boat.
Oh, except that he owned it. But the storm was the worst ever, IIRC, in
Sydney-Hobart history.

He's a rich boy
who bought his way into a mans game and could not hang. Once he
accepted he was going to die, then be assured his crew felt the same
way. I think it's a wise decision for him to give up ocean racing all
together. You can not buy your way into being a good Captain.

IIRC, Larry kept his feelings to himself. After winning the race, he
compared his impressions with those of his crew and many others apparently
felt they would not survive the storm, either. But you are basically right
about rich boys who like to play at ocean racing--they get what they want
with a check, not with qualifications.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Larry Ellison commented in a post-race interview that he thought,
once or twice, that he and his crew might actually survive the '98 Hobart
while they were in the midst of the storm.

Actually they were souoth of the worst part of it.

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall that. Sayonara was fast enough to
beat the worst of the storm. The heavy Winston Churchill wasn't, sadly.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

I don't recall that Ellison behaved any differently than anyone else on his
boat. In fact, I believe one of his crew were injured and he was very
concerned for his well being.


The size is not as important and spacing IMO

I doubt if most professional sailors would entirely agree.


well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.

I believe the crew of the Andrea Gale witnessed something like that rather
near the end of their lives.


Max

Hey Oz--
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
"Joe" wrote
.... Terry(my
wife) rode out Hurricane alicia on a 60 ft shrimpboat that had every
port and window smashed in with every wave putting at least a ft of
water in the wheelhose, waves in the 40 -60 ft range.


Sounds exciting. One thing I have noticed about most shrimpers, they do
believe in have good pumps aboard.


Maxprop wrote:
I'm not aware of the type and configuration of all the boats you mention.
But I'm betting none were lightly-built (underbuilt), overcanvased maxi
racers, or anything similar.

Interesting way to put it. But it also reveals a fallacy in thinking about
the issue of structural integrity of boats (or any vehicle).

In basic physics, when you're figuring out how much force is generated (or
absorbed in an impact), velocity is squared. In boats this means that
going 10 knots generates four times the force of going 5 knots. Another
side of the problem is that impact loads are spread over time... hitting
waves faster means higher peak loads on the structure.

So maxi racers are far from underbuilt. They are built very very strong,
if not they would crumble from the forces generated in driving them under
normal sailing conditions. Successful racing boats are generally built
much stronger than cruising boats... they are also subjected to
exponentially higher forces. This is why the structural failures on racing
boats tend to be more sudden & dramatic... like the difference between a
2400psi express header multi-fuel boiler and 60psi fire tube boiler with a
wood furnace built into one end.

How many cruising boats sailed through the '98 Hobart Race storm?

I won't dispute that maxis are built for heavy loads, but I'm betting they
normally aren't built for the sorts of conditions of the '98 Hobart.
Considering the force of the wind and the speed at which boats plunged off
those monstrous, steep waves, the forces applied to hull and rig were
exponentially greater than what might be normally encountered in typical
"bad" weather.

Max

Hey Oz--
 

Maxprop wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...


What's cheap is Captain's who has no grace under pressure. They are a
dime a dozen.

I don't recall that Ellison behaved any differently than anyone else on his
boat. In fact, I believe one of his crew were injured and he was very
concerned for his well being.


Well he should be.....

The size is not as important and spacing IMO

I doubt if most professional sailors would entirely agree.

What pro sailors?




well 130 fter sure would be a sight to behold.

I believe the crew of the Andrea Gale witnessed something like that rather
near the end of their lives.

zYou have watched to much dumb **** TV...sorry.

Joe
Max

Hey Oz--
 

You have a good point Joe. Lots of people have
the money for boats they don't have the skills to
merit.

I see it all the time. The one that first comes to mind
is a Baltic 44 owner dressed up in what he thought
were yachtsman cloths. He had hired a skipper to bring
his boat to Bermuda and then, when he took over was
afraid to leave in a perfect weather window. I'm sure
I told you that story.

You could see the gas coming out of him when
he said he was waiting for a good weather window
and people were choking back the laughter.

Ellison is, I've heard, a good sailor. He certainly knows
how to build a boat. He is smart. I would not place him
in that pompous category. And I don't blame him a bit for
not coming back, except that it seems that when you have
that much money invested in a project, you HAVE to follow
through and race, even if perhaps you should bail out. Ellison
places more pressure on himself than anyone else ever could.

I admire the guy. I'd like to meet him.

Joe wrote:
Geeeze, what a bunch of pussies.

But that shows you many men who can afford Hoybart yachts are lubber's
to start with, who bought thier way to sea. To bad not many real
sailors can afford 60 ft ocean sleads.