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Docking Situation Question #3
"Capt. JG" wrote | Poor Mooron. He has so much anger. So far, he can't do anything but call | people bad names. Maybe some people deserve to be called bad names. Your not exactly acting like a gentleman ya know. I think CM makes a lot more sense than you do. I can tell your just a beginner compared to him. You say some dumb things and expect people not to question you. Duh! You should listen to him. He might be exaggerating a little but he's basically right about how easy it is to haul a boat up by the anchor line. It's hard to get it going but once its going it tends to keep going for a while. You just add some steady pull and it goes right along. Then, like he says. If it really is too hard you can use a winch or windlass. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
silverback wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. That statement is without fact, merit nor credence. I'm just quoting from the ABYC ground tackle load table. Actually, if you can keep the boat aligned perfectly to the wind, the wind would be load would be a lot less, but the anchor loading table assumes a fair amount of yaw. On the other hand, if you're hauling the boat out and a gust comes in from 20 degrees off line ... And the force of the sails must be considerable, and would add to the tendency to yaw. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. A complete load of hogwash Jeff. Even if the forces approched such herculean parameters.... the winches would compensate easily. Ah, winches! I thought you were doing this hand over hand! Yes, give me a fulcrum ... I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. What is it about inertia you people can't seem top fathom? Once the vessel starts moving in a direction it is easier to maintain that movement. It's not a matter of strenght... it's a matter of smarts There is no way a 30 or even 40 ft sailboat places a 700lb static load to a mooring when into the wind. Surge loads are not viable for this equation since they can be timed out. Actually, its the yaw that increases the projected area to create the high force. Surge was not included, but Van Dorn and others predict surge in storm doubles the loading again. Of course, I hope you're not doing this in a storm surge, but any surge (or current) would not help the inertia thing at all. Its actually pretty easy to see it for a larger boat: the frontal area gets up over 100 feet. Add another 40 or 50 for the mast, rigging, lifelines. Drag coefficient is easily 1, may higher for a cruising boat. Dynamic pressure is 3 pounds per square foot at 30 knots. So before we consider yaw or the sails we're up to 450 pounds or more. BTW, Dynamic pressure goes down to 1.3 lb/ft**2 in 20 knots, so if its just gusting to 30, then this gets a lot easier. And I did admit that there probably was a way to do it. Its just not as easy is you make it sound. Now here is the kicker Jeff... I indeed have hand over handed my 6 ton sailboat into 30 kt winds from a lee dock in Great Slave Lake. It wasn't really that difficult. Gotcha! Before you claimed you did it all the time, now you're admitting maybe you did it once. And its well known that the dynamic pressure of the wind that far north is a lot less. Coriolis force and all that. Ask Jax. If you say it's not possible... I have to assume you've never actually attempted it. Until you do... refrain from further input. You know not of what you speak. Actually, I was doing it on my smaller boat, but fired up the engine because the anchorage was crowded and my crew very inexperienced. But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff language because it makes him feel good to say it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he expects people will understand that it's just theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out. Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd maybe not take it personally. What you say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Hahaha... now that's a pun I can sail with.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: He's so angry, he can't stop. It's quite pathetic. That's why Ellen is attracted to him. She has a lot of anchor, too. CWM |
Docking Situation Question #3
Mooron speaks from experience.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:gM0Pg.20178$E67.182@clgrps13... Geez Chuck.... you and Ganz should take this off line and get a room. CM- "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: He's so angry, he can't stop. It's quite pathetic. That's why Ellen is attracted to him. She has a lot of anchor, too. CWM |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people out for myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe you should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him. You know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being crabby and crabby gets you crabby. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Capt. JG wrote: Mooron is an angry guy with no social skills or life. He just can't stand it when confronted by someone who actually sails. Whatever. Nonetheless, he's right. What he says is a perfectly viable technique. It WILL work, has worked and isn't difficult to do. Really, Jon, I can't see why you'd bother disputing it. It may not be in your particular technique inventory, it might not be in your books, but all that proves is that both are incomplete. I remember reading a translation of the account of the first transit of Magellan Straits. They did this all the time including cutting anchors free whan there wasn't time to retrieve them. PDW |
Docking Situation Question #3
He's right that it's possible. He's not right that it's usually necessary.
If it were, it would be in the standard books. However, if you wouldn't mind showing me a book or lesson plan that it is in, I'd be happy to concede that someone out there is teaching it to others. Regarding historical sailing, I'm sure they did lots of things that we no longer do. I'm pretty certain that there are lots of things that Mooron does when (if he ever) sails that not be what those of years gone by have done. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Peter" wrote in message oups.com... Capt. JG wrote: Mooron is an angry guy with no social skills or life. He just can't stand it when confronted by someone who actually sails. Whatever. Nonetheless, he's right. What he says is a perfectly viable technique. It WILL work, has worked and isn't difficult to do. Really, Jon, I can't see why you'd bother disputing it. It may not be in your particular technique inventory, it might not be in your books, but all that proves is that both are incomplete. I remember reading a translation of the account of the first transit of Magellan Straits. They did this all the time including cutting anchors free whan there wasn't time to retrieve them. PDW |
Docking Situation Question #3
So, I must deserve it. Is that you're judgement? Well golly gee miss molly.
Who give a flying crap what you think? You know nothing much about sailing, and certainly nothing much about me or Mooron. Buzz off. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Poor Mooron. He has so much anger. So far, he can't do anything but call | people bad names. Maybe some people deserve to be called bad names. Your not exactly acting like a gentleman ya know. I think CM makes a lot more sense than you do. I can tell your just a beginner compared to him. You say some dumb things and expect people not to question you. Duh! You should listen to him. He might be exaggerating a little but he's basically right about how easy it is to haul a boat up by the anchor line. It's hard to get it going but once its going it tends to keep going for a while. You just add some steady pull and it goes right along. Then, like he says. If it really is too hard you can use a winch or windlass. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take
responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who cares what you think. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff language because it makes him feel good to say it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he expects people will understand that it's just theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out. Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd maybe not take it personally. What you say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Clearly not. If you think he's so kewl, then why don't you email him. Maybe
he'll take you in like one of the many chickens he has routing around on his property. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people out for myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe you should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him. You know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being crabby and crabby gets you crabby. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
"silverback" wrote in message news:SUZOg.17847$E67.11705@clgrps13... "Scotty" wrote in message the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the wind by hand??? YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times! Raise main & genny. Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor is holding but ready to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then weigh anchor as you sail by the hook point. Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season without aux. I know what a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly amazing. The key is to preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and most of all... understand your boat. Shhhhh..be quiet Moron, you'll spoil all the fun! Scotty |
Docking Situation Question #3
well, sure, if you're talking about big, slow full keel
double ended pigs that can't sail out of their own way. SBV "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... 1 point for CM Small boat might get off with a running start, but it is by no means certain and this is a small subset of the sailing population. The proper way is to set an anchor and pull yourself off. If the boat is big, it will have big winches. You can winch yourself off the dock and lay to a single anchor. As to when you should set your sails. That is a matter of choice. When laying to a single anchor you can hoist later or you can do it in advance--which means more work. I'd just set the main after pulling myself off and leave the foredeck clean for working up the anchor. With a roller furler I'd unroll the jib enough to allow me to back the sail but not enough to be in the way of hosting the anchor. The advantage to having the jib set is you can back it if you are in irons. The same could be done with the main, but less effectively. "silverback" wrote "Scotty" wrote in message the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the wind by hand??? YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times! Raise main & genny. Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor is holding but ready to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then weigh anchor as you sail by the hook point. Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season without aux. I know what a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly amazing. The key is to preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and most of all... understand your boat. CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Capt. JG" wrote | You're joking. Sailing isn't about strength. It's about planning ahead. That's about the silliest thing you've said so far... If it's true how come they don't *plan ahead* instead of having big strong crewmen grind winches on racing yachts? that was their plan, to have big strong grinders onboard. Sheesh! SBV |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "silverback" wrote | Row out your anchor to windward. Set your sails. Pull your vessel to the | anchor. Tie off and set the sheets. Hoist anchor as you sail by. I've done | this so often it's second nature. It's called casting off from a lee dock. | No big deal. I agree with you but Capt. JG says I should forget about using an anchor to sail off a dock. For a captain maybe he's inexperienced??? Absolutely...you kedge your little Sunfish off the dock. |
Docking Situation Question #3
I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may
be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote He might be exaggerating a little That is priceless! ;)))))) |
Docking Situation Question #3
"silverback" wrote in message news:7l_Og.18106$E67.14061@clgrps13... "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | Have you ever tried it. I can pull my 30'er , bow first | into wind, no sails up, but it's not easy. I wouldn't try | it sideways with a sail up! No, but I'm not a strong man. And you could always get help from the crew. Or wait for a lull. But it might not be as hard as you think. In the heave to position about half the mainsail is covered up by the jib. The total sail area probably isn't as big as you think. Plus the boat will lean over a little too spilling wind. Oh Good Grief..... what type of resistance from the sails are you anticipating with the sheets running free... abeam to the wind????? Here's a clue.... NONE!! Let me guess... none of you have ever even tried this... have you? Yes, I have. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "silverback" wrote | Spoken from the mouth of inexperience. Ground tackle and it's use in | manuevering vessels is an art long lost to you panywaisted sailing | instructors with no experience in vessel handling without an engine to | depend on! | | You Dare think you have sufficent experience to hold the title of Captain | because you passed some idiotic exam that is taken and passed by thousands | every week? You think because you teach rank newbs the very basics of sail | that you have any merit to refer to yourself as a Captain?? | | Your ilk disgust me! You encapsulate everything I detest about the persons | taking up sailing these days. Smarmy, whinning ****ants that consider a few | years of bay sailing and a romp in the charter islands as proof of | competency. | | I .... on the other hand... can talk now .... because when I was learning... | it was with hands on experience with real seafarers... and back then I kept | my mouth shut and my ears open. I learned first hand.... you book read | wanna-be scumsucking dock diva! | | You're not fit too lick the salt from my boot! Whoopee! Here's a man with a real big hitch in his giddyup! I like your style, sir... Don't interrupt, he's on a roll. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 16:34:52 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: He's so angry, he can't stop. It's quite pathetic. That's why Ellen is attracted to him. She has a lot of anchor, too. Is that the best you could come up with, Jons new bitch? SV |
Docking Situation Question #3
Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore.
Scotty wrote: I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Scotty" wrote in message . .. "Ellen MacArthur" wrote He might be exaggerating a little That is priceless! ;)))))) Heh..... I'm a sailor... it's in the blood. :-) CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Jeff" wrote in message But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push. What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket denouncement. I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all. Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent searoom is a recipe for disaster. Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing skills is ludicrous. I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a pompous little asshole. To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver. Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it. Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling. Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel to compliment the ground tackle aboard. Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while. Later CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
You're so-o-o-o-o-o GAY Ganzy!
CM- "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who cares what you think. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff language because it makes him feel good to say it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he expects people will understand that it's just theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out. Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd maybe not take it personally. What you say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Don't forget my pet Turkey!
I thought it was a hawk but when I tried to teach it to attack... it just jumped off my glove and pecked seeds on the ground. I was crushed. Jon... you're so-o-o-o-o GAY! CM- "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Clearly not. If you think he's so kewl, then why don't you email him. Maybe he'll take you in like one of the many chickens he has routing around on his property. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people out for myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe you should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him. You know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being crabby and crabby gets you crabby. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... He's right that it's possible. He's not right that it's usually necessary. If it were, it would be in the standard books. However, if you wouldn't mind showing me a book or lesson plan that it is in, I'd be happy to concede that someone out there is teaching it to others. Ganzy is a book read sailor... Ganzy is a book read sailor.... Ganzy you are so fricken Gay! Show you a book indeed!!! Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaa CM- |
Docking Situation Question #3
I'm baiting Ganzy with facts he's unaware of. He'll respond that I'm angry!
:-) CM "Scotty" wrote in message . .. "silverback" wrote in message news:SUZOg.17847$E67.11705@clgrps13... "Scotty" wrote in message the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the wind by hand??? YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times! Raise main & genny. Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor is holding but ready to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then weigh anchor as you sail by the hook point. Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season without aux. I know what a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly amazing. The key is to preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and most of all... understand your boat. Shhhhh..be quiet Moron, you'll spoil all the fun! Scotty |
Docking Situation Question #3
It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a midship cleat.
CM "Jeff" wrote in message ... Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore. Scotty wrote: I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Scotty" wrote in message Don't interrupt, he's on a roll. I love this group..... :-) CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
silverback wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push. What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket denouncement. If you read my original comment about the forces, it was not a denouncement, its was a statement of fact. Yes, those forces included some yaw, but Ellen was talking about hauling the boat sideways to the wind. If I could do it with my 25 footer (and I was truly a skinny wimp back then) I have no doubt that a stronger person could do it with a 30 footer. Its just not easy. I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all. Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent searoom is a recipe for disaster. I have no doubt that you can construct a scenario where it would be the preferred method. But it would have to be very constrained if the wind was on the bow. You should need more than a boatlength to get the boat going. And, in that thread, we were specifically talking about Ellen's boat, which is a tad smaller than a Rhodes 19. I've sailed them off the dock hundreds of times, in all manner or conditions, without drama. Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing skills is ludicrous. I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction. There's a large boat at my marina that sits at the end of a dock and sets his anchor to hold him off. While it makes sense in strong winds, it's an annoyance to have an anchor line sticking out all the time. I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a pompous little asshole. He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that. To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver. Yes, I had to do that once. Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it. Indeed, another instructor who had never done it. Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling. Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel to compliment the ground tackle aboard. Kedging off a sandbank or setting a second anchor is a pretty common thing, but as I've said, I've never seen a small boat do it from the dock. Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while. I'm going sailing, eventually. |
Docking Situation Question #3
"Jeff" wrote in message I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction. Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to that. I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the capabilities and limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an auxilliary was much like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not required but easier. I think every course in sailing should incorporate a large portion on boat handling without an engine. This is not currently taught that I know of and it leads to opinions like Ganz's. He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that. I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of merit. I'm going sailing, eventually. Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and so I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also allow me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter sailing this year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm Canadian so cold weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern sailors. :-) CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
AHA !!!!!
"silverback" wrote in message news:I0cPg.28256$E67.1371@clgrps13... It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a midship cleat. CM "Jeff" wrote in message ... Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore. Scotty wrote: I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
You're a very pathetic guy, and obviously quite angry with the world.
Something must have happened to you and we all should feel sorry for you. For leaving a dock, ground tackle is rarely if ever used. Feel free to name the myriad circumstances that you would use it. I don't believe you actually work. I think you're in a hospital, perhaps as an outpatient. You're clearly a liar. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:tUbPg.28149$E67.14838@clgrps13... "Jeff" wrote in message But, you're avoiding the real point. Are you really claiming that this is the best way for Ellen to get her 18 foot, 1200 pound boat off the dock? Is this really what you would do??? I would just hop in and sail it away. Maybe I ask someone to give a push. What I was getting at Jeff..... is that all your tables and books have no more merit in the field than the expectations of an engineer's plans to be completed without being effected by in-field conditions. Don't claim my statement as blanket coverage when yours was as obviously a blanket denouncement. I've sailed my boat without an auxillary for a year. No engine at all. Sailing a 30 foot cruiser off a dock with vessels both fore and aft isn't like pushing off a 20 ft fin keeler. If for instance you are facing a wind on the bow and shore or foul ground aft.... sailing off without sufficent searoom is a recipe for disaster. Effective use of ground tackle to position the vessel for a safe and smartly executed departure is simply a mark of good seamanship. To arrbitrarily denounce it as a last measure option is ridiculous. To state that any vessel can be sailed off a dock under any circumstances due to superior sailing skills is ludicrous. I bother to engage you because you are in my consideration an adept sailor and understand seamanship as well as boat handling. Ganz on the other hand is a typical example of a book learned dock instructor without any experience, relying on his merit badges and stickers in his book as a resume. For Jon to state that ground tackle is rarely if ever considered illustrates his lack of knowledge and experience. Ganz is in my view a pompous little asshole. To decide on what method to employ, to depart or arrive to a dock under sail is subject to a multitude of conditions that must be considered when planning the maneuver. This cannot be addressed in a simple question. I can tell you that when I employed ground tackle.... the conditions required it because sailing off was not an option. When I employed ground tackle to sail into the dock... it was because it was the safest and most secure method to undertake the required positioning to execute that maneuver. Now... despite your tables and force loads... I can tell you that I have used ground tackle in a multitude of conditions and with several vessels ranging from 20 to 42 ft. The instructor for the CYA in Yellowknife requested I go through the procedure with him so that he could incorporate it in his course. He had heard of it but it was not included in the curriculem nor had he ever undertaken to use it. Ground tackle and it's use is a very misunderstood part of boat handling. Many people ...like Ganz... consider an anchor for only one purpose. This isn't the case at all. A good tender is a requirement for any large vessel to compliment the ground tackle aboard. Anyway.... I'm back to the job site today so I won't be posting for a while. Later CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
Jeff, you're debating someone who will eventually start calling you names as
soon as you disagree with him a couple of more times. You know that right? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:nRcPg.28914$E67.11290@clgrps13... "Jeff" wrote in message I never said that at all. But I've never actually seen it done as you describe, probably because it was always easier and safer to just have a workboat haul the boat off. I have seen a kedge used a few times to maneuver large boats around, like reversing direction. Oddly enough Jeff... neither had I until I was faced with a season of sailing without auxilliary. It had been explained to me by the fishermen I worked with as a youth and I also remembered the advise given me by my betters about planning departure/arrivals and having a back-up plan to that. I practised the manuevers and familiarized myself with the capabilities and limitations of my vessel. I realized that year that an auxilliary was much like any other conveinience aboard a boat. Not required but easier. I think every course in sailing should incorporate a large portion on boat handling without an engine. This is not currently taught that I know of and it leads to opinions like Ganz's. He is correct, that it is rarely considered. Even you agree with that. I only agree that it isn't taught.... Jon's position is that it is arbitarily inconsequential... that is the idiotic statement that I take offense to. Instead of trying to learn... he condemns and preaches about a subject he has no experience with. He displays his ignorance as a badge of merit. I'm going sailing, eventually. Good for you... I've just secured a mooring and storage at Shining Waters Marina for when I return from the work site. They have a travel lift and so I won't have to endure the cluster**** of a crane launch. It will also allow me to extend my sailing time. Maybe I'll get to do some winter sailing this year. I love sailing in a fresh snowfall. Then again I'm Canadian so cold weather isn't the impediment it is to you southern sailors. :-) CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
Yes, but Mooron thinks an anchor is required. Perhaps for him it is.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Scotty" wrote in message ... I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
Bzzt. Wrong answer.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:I0cPg.28256$E67.1371@clgrps13... It would be nigh impossible on a large vessel from a midship cleat. CM "Jeff" wrote in message ... Yes, that's what she said. That would be quite a chore. Scotty wrote: I may be getting these docking questions mixed up, and I may be drinking but I believe Little Ellen was to have you pull the boat INTO the wind, sideways, from midship cleat she said. Scotty "Jeff" wrote in message . .. silverback wrote: "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.ne t... "Scotty" wrote | the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and | you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the | wind by hand??? Well, yeah. But, I'm not talking about really big boats. I'd say anything up to 25 feet would work that way. A strong man could probably pull a 30 foot boat out in say 10-15 miles per hour wind. Six tons of full keel cruising sailboat.... in 30 knots on a lee dock.... can be pulled to hook point.... even by a wimpy sissy like Ganz. The wind force on the typical 30 foot sailboat in a 30 knot breeze is about 700 pounds. And that's without the sail up. I use to sail my 25 footer without firing up the engine for a season. One of the few times I used it was to raise a well set anchor in a crowded anchorage with a strong breeze. Even though I was 30 years younger, I could just barely haul the boat up to the anchor with sails set, and that was probably 500 pounds on the rode. I bet even Ole Thom could easily manage a 40 footer. The only thing to overcome is inertia.... With a 40 footer, the strain goes well over 1000 pounds. Yes, there are probably a few tricks you can play, but just hauling hand over hand isn't going to do much. |
Docking Situation Question #3
You're pathetic. It's in your head.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:1ibPg.27668$E67.25968@clgrps13... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. "Ellen MacArthur" wrote He might be exaggerating a little That is priceless! ;)))))) Heh..... I'm a sailor... it's in the blood. :-) CM |
Docking Situation Question #3
You're an angry little man. I feel sorry for you.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:AVbPg.28164$E67.13272@clgrps13... You're so-o-o-o-o-o GAY Ganzy! CM- "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Ummm dummy, maybe he's just what I said, and angry guy who can't take responsibility for his own actions. And, like I said previously, who cares what you think. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Uh, how should I say this.... Captain, maybe he's just using gruff language because it makes him feel good to say it that way. It's fun to read if you don't take it seriously. Maybe he expects people will understand that it's just theatrics? I don't think he's really stressed out. Maybe if you'd loosen up a little you wouldn't provoke his ire. You'd maybe not take it personally. What you say he's doing you've been doing to me all day. Your just not as colorful. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Keep doing this Mooron, and you will succeed in screwing yourself over. You
need to calm down and try not to get so angry. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "silverback" wrote in message news:rXbPg.28188$E67.19111@clgrps13... Don't forget my pet Turkey! I thought it was a hawk but when I tried to teach it to attack... it just jumped off my glove and pecked seeds on the ground. I was crushed. Jon... you're so-o-o-o-o GAY! CM- "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Clearly not. If you think he's so kewl, then why don't you email him. Maybe he'll take you in like one of the many chickens he has routing around on his property. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message reenews.net... "Capt. JG" wrote | Mooron, among other things, is a proven liar. He's a very angry person. Just | watch how he reacts to anything someone says that's negative about him. Thank you so much for the insight. But, I think I can figure people out for myself. I happen to disagree with you on this. I think he's kewl. Maybe you should take your own advice and start saying something nice about him. You know, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.... Your being crabby and crabby gets you crabby. Cheers, Ellen |
Docking Situation Question #3
Like I said....
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Scotty" wrote in message . .. well, sure, if you're talking about big, slow full keel double ended pigs that can't sail out of their own way. SBV "Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ... 1 point for CM Small boat might get off with a running start, but it is by no means certain and this is a small subset of the sailing population. The proper way is to set an anchor and pull yourself off. If the boat is big, it will have big winches. You can winch yourself off the dock and lay to a single anchor. As to when you should set your sails. That is a matter of choice. When laying to a single anchor you can hoist later or you can do it in advance--which means more work. I'd just set the main after pulling myself off and leave the foredeck clean for working up the anchor. With a roller furler I'd unroll the jib enough to allow me to back the sail but not enough to be in the way of hosting the anchor. The advantage to having the jib set is you can back it if you are in irons. The same could be done with the main, but less effectively. "silverback" wrote "Scotty" wrote in message the wind's blowing this bigger boat against the dock and you're going to hoist sail and THEN pull the boat INTO the wind by hand??? YES! My boat is six tons and I've done it many times! Raise main & genny. Hand over hand the vessel to the point where the anchor is holding but ready to be weighed.... now take in sheets..... then weigh anchor as you sail by the hook point. Scotty... it works everytime. I sailed for a season without aux. I know what a sailboat can do without an engine. It's truly amazing. The key is to preplan your manuevers. Think out the situation and most of all... understand your boat. CM |
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