Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Edgar" wrote
| If the wind is pushing you backwards the rudder will work and you should be
| able to regain control. The other boat should have taken avoiding action
| anyway.



Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Didn't I say there was a strong current going the same way as the wind?
Your in irons. The wind is blowing you backwards. The current is going backwards
about the same speed.

No it doesn't quite work that way. The current is always pushing you
backwards over the ground. When the wind pushes you backwards it
means backwards through the water.

There isn't any water going past the rudder. That makes the
rudder not work. It has to have some speed through the water to work.

No, when the wind starts "pushing you backwards" you will have
sternway through the water. And then your rudder works.

The only thing
that might work is like somebody else said. You can try backing the sail by hand but
that's not easy on a sunfish. It's narrow and tippy.

If that's the case, you really shouldn't be sailing the boat! You
said in another post that this boat frequently gets stuck in irons; if
its too difficult to deal with that, you shouldn't be out there.
Incompetence does not make you a NUC!

"Jeff" wrote
| Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
| out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
| would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
| wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
| sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Oh fooey! This is getting hopeless..
Jeff, your just wrong! Your in irons. Your not going foward. The wind's
pushing you backwards. The sail is banging around in the middle of the boat.
If there's no current water will be going by you from back to front. The rudder
will work but opposite of how it usually works.
In this case there's a current going the same direction as the wind and
about the same speed. Your going backwards and the water is going backwards
at the same speed. The rudder has no motion through the water. It won't work.
I can't see why you keep talking about land. It's got nothing to do with
land. Only wind, current and water.


Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
| out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
| would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
| wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
| sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Oh fooey! This is getting hopeless..

No, this is the most fun I've had since Jaxashby disappeared.


Jeff, your just wrong!
Oh No!

Your in irons.
OK

Your not going foward.
If there was a current I might never have been going forward. Think
about it.


The wind's pushing you backwards.

Backwards over the ground or through the water? If its over the
ground, how would I know? If its through the water, then the rudder
works!

The sail is banging around in the middle of the boat.
enough of the drama ...


If there's no current water will be going by you from back to front. The rudder
will work

Yes, I'm glad you understand this.

but opposite of how it usually works.

That depends how you look at it.

In this case there's a current going the same direction as the wind and
about the same speed.
Ahhh! We have a problem here. If the wind and the current is the
same speed and direction, then the boat (and all other boats in the
vicinity) feel no wind - it will effectively be flat calm, and the
alleged collision could not happen.

However, you stated there was both a strong wind and a strong current.
To my way of thinking, a strong current is between 3 and 6 knots,
beyond that would be extremely strong and only rarely encountered by
most sailors. However, a strong wind would be at least 15 knots, and
many would consider that pretty wimpy. If the "strong current" was 5
knots, and the "strong wind" was 20, this would be indistinguishable
from 15 knots of wind with no current.

Your going backwards and the water is going backwards
at the same speed. The rudder has no motion through the water.

No. This point is the identical to (and indistinguishable from) the
point where with no current, you stopped moving forwards. Immediately
following that, you start moving backwards, assuming the wind is
stronger than the current.

It won't work.
I can't see why you keep talking about land. It's got nothing to do with
land. Only wind, current and water.

It is only by looking at the land that you can tell there is a
current. If this concept illudes you, consider reading any physics
text written in the last 400 years, starting with Galileo's Theory of
Relativity.

"Jeff" wrote
(lots of things that don't matter so I deleted them)

THIS is what matters and this is what happened in my question.
Your just being thick on purpose. Your wrong and I can prove it with an example.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2 miles an hour over the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground and at the same speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and the rudder won't work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have to be any land in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!

Cheers,
Ellen

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote



.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2
miles an hour over the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground
and at the same speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not
through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and
the rudder won't work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have
to be any land in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!


If your boat is going backward at 4 MPH, and the current is
2 MPH ( that really should be in knots) then your rudder
should work just fine.

You're blond, aren't you?

Scotty

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
(lots of things that don't matter so I deleted them)

I you have any intention of understanding how boats work, or how to do
basic navigation, you will have to learn this stuff.


THIS is what matters and this is what happened in my question.
Your just being thick on purpose. Your wrong and I can prove it with an example.

If I'm being thick (and its happened once or twice before) I'm
certainly not doing it on purpose.


In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2 miles an hour over the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground and at the same speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and the rudder won't work.

Hello?! If the boat is moving 4 mph over ground, but the current is
only 2 mph, then the boat must be moving 2 mph through the water!
Thus the rudder works.

I knew you'd come around to my way of thinking.

Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have to be any land in sight
and you're still dead in the water.

Consider this: assuming the current and the wind have different
strengths (which is the original question) if you get into irons you
will start to slow down. Then you will be dead in the water. Then
you will start to go backwards. at this point your rudder works
again. There is no magic that says if there's a current you can't go
backwards through the water.

Consider also: you've been plopped in the ocean with no position
revealing instruments, but you do have speed and wind gauges. You
sail for some time and then get rescued. Your rescuers ask if you
encountered any current. What can you tell them?

Enough!

never!

"Jeff" wrote |
Hello?! If the boat is moving 4 mph over ground, but the current is
| only 2 mph, then the boat must be moving 2 mph through the water!
| Thus the rudder works.

Well, it doesn't work very good. :-O~

| Consider also: you've been plopped in the ocean with no position
| revealing instruments, but you do have speed and wind gauges. You
| sail for some time and then get rescued. Your rescuers ask if you
| encountered any current. What can you tell them?

Nothing but I can tell them if my rudder worked or not. If there's wind
but no current then it will work in irons because the boat goes backwards.
Look at it this way. The rudder feels a current going by it. (if it could feel).
How fast the current goes past land doesn't matter. Only what matters
is current passing the rudder. If the wind is pushing you back at the same
speed the current's going back the rudder feels no current. Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.

Cheers,
Ellen

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the
wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't
feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.


WTF ?

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote |
Hello?! If the boat is moving 4 mph over ground, but the current is
| only 2 mph, then the boat must be moving 2 mph through the water!
| Thus the rudder works.

Well, it doesn't work very good. :-O~

| Consider also: you've been plopped in the ocean with no position
| revealing instruments, but you do have speed and wind gauges. You
| sail for some time and then get rescued. Your rescuers ask if you
| encountered any current. What can you tell them?

Nothing but I can tell them if my rudder worked or not. If there's wind
but no current then it will work in irons because the boat goes backwards.
Look at it this way. The rudder feels a current going by it. (if it could feel).

NO NO NO! This is your mistake. The rudder does not feel the current
because the boat and the rudder are always being pushed by the
current. If the boat were anchored, then it could feel the current.
Drifting free, there is no way to know there is a current. There is
no observable affect.

Another analogy: if you're flying on a plane, at a steady speed, do
you feel the chair pushing you at 500 mph? In one of Galileo's works
on "relativity" he asked if a fly in a cabin on a boat would be
affected by the boat's forward motion - would it fly any differently?

This is all the same thing. When the medium in/on which you're
traveling is in constant motion, its very hard to detect that motion.


How fast the current goes past land doesn't matter. Only what matters
is current passing the rudder. If the wind is pushing you back at the same
speed the current's going back the rudder feels no current.

Again, NO. The current is already pushing you back at the speed of
the current. This is unobservable to you, except that it alters the
perceived wind. If the wind also pushes you back that will be
"through the water" and you will sense that as sternway.

Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.

As I said, if the current is the same strength as the true wind (and
going in the same direction) it will feel like you're becalmed. In
fact, it is indistinguishable from being becalmed. But this only hold
when the wind and current are the same. In general, you subtract
(in a vector way) the current from the true wind and you have the
observable wind.

Wait a sec... it's a sunfish. You could easily move the rudder and the sail
to get it moving.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Jeff" wrote
(lots of things that don't matter so I deleted them)

THIS is what matters and this is what happened in my question.
Your just being thick on purpose. Your wrong and I can prove it with
an example.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2 miles an hour over
the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground and at the same
speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and the rudder won't
work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have to be any land
in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!

Cheers,
Ellen