My seamanship question #2
 

You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #2
 

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of
current where your sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the
currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you
backwards and the current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't
work. Suddenly another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


1. The guy that rented the two Sunfishes to two morons that
don't know how to sail.

2. Because he should have known better when he heard you
yell, ''Dee Dee Dee''.


Scotty

My seamanship question #2
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen


You''re both at fault for not having control of your respective vessels...

My seamanship question #2
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen


The current is irrelevant. All you have is boat A blew a tack and
while it was in irons, boat B hit it. If A tacked too close, it could
be A's fault. Otherwise, B gets most of the blame.

However, I don't see why the rudder wouldn't work - with even the
smallest amount of sternway it should be possible to get out of irons
immediately. Both skippers are likely incompetent and their testimony
is therefore unreliable.

My seamanship question #2
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your
sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the
current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work.
Suddenly another Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Sorry, my rudder never "doesn't work." But I know it
occasionally happens to others... an Sunfish are pretty easy
to get in irons anyway, especially with the old rudder
design (round tip profile).


Jeff wrote:
The current is irrelevant. All you have is boat A blew a tack and while
it was in irons, boat B hit it. If A tacked too close, it could be A's
fault. Otherwise, B gets most of the blame.


Agreed, if they're not racing, then ColRegs says A is not
under command and B should give way. If they are racing then
it's A's fault under the IYRU rules which say that a boat
which is tacking shall keep clear of a boat on a tack.



However, I don't see why the rudder wouldn't work - with even the
smallest amount of sternway it should be possible to get out of irons
immediately. Both skippers are likely incompetent and their testimony
is therefore unreliable.

What "Ellen" was trying to say is that the boat could be
making sternway at approx the same rate as the current,
leaving the boat effectively dead in the water and the
rudder would have no 'bite.' That's aside from getting stuck
in irons which some boats do from sheer pig-headedness... in
fact Hobie 16s and Sunfish are probably the worst I know of
for this.

If the skipper knows how to back the sail, or scull with the
rudder, or roll-tack, this doesn't happen (or at least, it
happens far less frequently).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

My seamanship question #2
 

DSK wrote:
....
What "Ellen" was trying to say is that the boat could be making sternway
at approx the same rate as the current, leaving the boat effectively
dead in the water and the rudder would have no 'bite.'

Yes, I guess that's what she's thinking. But from the perspective of
the two sailors, the current doesn't exist. If there was a fixed
object, like a starting line, then this gets more interesting.

My seamanship question #2
 

DSK wrote:
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where
your sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the
current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work.
Suddenly another Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Sorry, my rudder never "doesn't work." But I know it occasionally
happens to others... an Sunfish are pretty easy to get in irons anyway,
especially with the old rudder design (round tip profile).


Jeff wrote:
The current is irrelevant. All you have is boat A blew a tack and
while it was in irons, boat B hit it. If A tacked too close, it could
be A's fault. Otherwise, B gets most of the blame.


Agreed, if they're not racing, then ColRegs says A is not under command
and B should give way. If they are racing then it's A's fault under the
IYRU rules which say that a boat which is tacking shall keep clear of a
boat on a tack.

I've always wondered about claiming NUC in these cases. Clearly, the
letter of the law isn't followed if you don't show the appropriate
signals. However, its been ruled that obvious signs like the outboard
cover off are close enough. While the luffing sails could be
considered a clear signal, being in irons is not an "exceptional
circumstance" as required by the rule.

OTOH, rule 2 certainly would cover this under "limitations of vessels."

My seamanship question #2
 

You for being stupid. The other boat for hitting you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your
sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the
current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly
another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #2
 

"DSK" wrote
| Agreed, if they're not racing, then ColRegs says A is not
| under command and B should give way.

Doug, you win. The Sunfish in irons is N.U.C. and a sailboat mustn't hit N.U.C. boats of any sort.
I knew you were intelligent. (wink)


Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #2
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"DSK" wrote
| Agreed, if they're not racing, then ColRegs says A is not
| under command and B should give way.

Doug, you win. The Sunfish in irons is N.U.C. and a sailboat mustn't hit N.U.C. boats of any sort.
I knew you were intelligent. (wink)

Sorry, NUC is reserved for "exceptional circumstance." There are far
more appropriate reasons in the regs to avoid the collision. "Special
circumstances" or "limitations of vessels" would apply. And
certainly, any vessel with the ability to avoid the collision is
required to do so.

If the rudder or mast had broken, or if the skipper was injured, you
might be able to claim NUC status applied, but simple incompetence is
not enough. Also, on this boat with a breeze there is no reason to be
in irons for more than a few seconds.

However, there is nothing in the rules that explicitly covers the
situation of in irons, it is not port/starboard or windward/leeward
and the various powerboat rules don't apply. In these cases, "special
circumstances" apply. Some people think these cases are rare, but in
practice, special circumstances situations are very common, and we
deal with them without thinking. For example, we wait for boats
backing out of slips and maneuvering in tight situations without
considering exactly which rule covers this. Human powered rowboats
and kayaks have no special status, but we usually avoid running them
down.

Thus the answer is not that boat B be should avoid the collision
because boat A was NUC, its that boat B should avoid the collision
because it can.

BTW, NUC is a condition that implies other should avoid hitting you.
It does not absolve you of responsibility. Consider this
situation: a 25 foot sloop crosses a major shipping lane at night and
becomes becalmed in front of an oncoming tanker. They try to start
the outboard and break the throttle. The tanker runs aground to avoid
collision. Who is at fault?