My seamanship question #2
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:

As kids, we often conducted informal backwards races in small boats around a
course. You probably did the same.


Actually, my intercollegiate teams did it in practice once a season,
and when I taught I included that, and rudderless sailing as advanced
topics.

My seamanship question #2
 

DSK wrote:
Jeff wrote:
.... If the wind and the current is the same speed and direction,
then the boat (and all other boats in the vicinity) feel no wind - it
will effectively be flat calm, and the alleged collision could not
happen.


Are you saying that if the wind and current are from the same direction
at the same speed, then boats could not sail?!??!!

Think it over Jeff, a guy who is familiar with applying Maxwell's
equations... much less one with your experience... ought to know the
answer.

Ah Ha! I got it! If you want to sail you set the anchor! OK, now I
can go to sleep.

My seamanship question #2
 

What I've heard is that it slams against the hull and fractures. Not sure if
this is true. Sure as **** don't want to try it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, the boat had no problem, the sailors were put back onboard and they
continued on.

Given my limited swimming ability, I would stay with the boat simple
because I doubt if I could get far enough away to improve my chances. But
I understand that many people have the fear that the boat will get sucked
under, and they along with it. I wonder if that really happens?


Scotty wrote:
As I remember, the boat came through just fine.

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I'm wondering if it would have been better to stay with
the sailboat, rather
than abandon ship... comments?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Baltimore Sun, 8/18/2001 - Sailing Trip Turns
Treacherous.
Sailboat Meets 700-foot Tanker
One Mile North of the Bay Bridge in the Craighill
Shipping Channel - A
couple tacking southbound at 3 a.m. in a 27-foot
Catalina were unable to
get out of the way of a northbound 700-foot tanker
loaded with 10 million
gallons of fuel. The wind had died & the sailboat's
skipper broke the key
to the outboard motor and was unable to use the radio to
effect. Before
the collision, the couple abandoned their boat, wearing
life jackets &
carrying a whistle and rope (to avoid being separated.)
The tanker brushed
past the sailboat. The couple were rescued after 2 hours
and a search
effort by boats & helicopters from six federal, state
and local rescue
teams. The tanker ran aground, briefly, but was
refloated without damage
or loss of fuel. The sailboat remained operational and
was returned to the
unhurt couple who sailed it to their destination.

My seamanship question #2
 

Wait a sec... it's a sunfish. You could easily move the rudder and the sail
to get it moving.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Jeff" wrote
(lots of things that don't matter so I deleted them)

THIS is what matters and this is what happened in my question.
Your just being thick on purpose. Your wrong and I can prove it with
an example.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2 miles an hour over
the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground and at the same
speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and the rudder won't
work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have to be any land
in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #2
 

I used to sail on a Sunfish in college off the coast of North County San
Diego. That's exactly what we did from time to time. Down wind all the way
to La Jolla, then we hitchhiked back with the boat. Of course, sometimes we
had to wait a bit for a pickup.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:32:49 -0400, "Ellen MacArthur"
wrote:


"Jeff" wrote
(lots of things that don't matter so I deleted them)

THIS is what matters and this is what happened in my question.
Your just being thick on purpose. Your wrong and I can prove it with
an example.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at 2 miles an hour
over the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground and at the same
speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water and the rudder
won't work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't have to be any land
in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!

Cheers,
Ellen



If the wind is pushing you backwards, then that means there is wind. On a
Sunfish, you simply grab the boom with your hand and push it out into the
wind
that is blowing you backwards. You will now be in Alcort's undocumented
"reverse
gear" and you will have instant rudder control. For that matter, it's a
SUNFISH,
so you can either paddle with your hands like a surfboard, or dive in the
water
and push or pull it. Yank the dagger board and paddle with that if it
thrills
you. The only way I would ever consider a Sunfish NUC is if it is
capsized, or
it was adrift with no one alive and consious on it.

CWM

My seamanship question #2
 

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:04:16 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:


"Ellen MacArthur" wrote



.
In irons and the wind is pushing you backwards at
2
miles an hour over the bottom.
The current is going the same direction over the ground
and at the same speed. 2 mph!
Your going backwards over the ground at 4 mph. Not
through the water.
The boat has NO freaking motion through the water
and
the rudder won't work.
Duh! Forget about looking at the land. There doesn't
have
to be any land in sight
and you're still dead in the water.
Enough!


If your boat is going backward at 4 MPH, and the current
is
2 MPH ( that really should be in knots) then your rudder
should work just fine.

You're blond, aren't you?

Scotty


She also said the wind was pushing her backwards at 2 mph.
That doesn't mean the
wind was blowing at 2 mph.


Your point?

My seamanship question #2
 

I would think it has more of a chance being pushed away from
the ship, or at least along the side. Joe probably knows,
I'm sure he's run over a sailboat or two.

Scotty


"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Yes, the boat had no problem, the sailors were put back
onboard and
they continued on.

Given my limited swimming ability, I would stay with the
boat simple
because I doubt if I could get far enough away to improve
my chances.
But I understand that many people have the fear that the
boat will
get sucked under, and they along with it. I wonder if
that really
happens?


Scotty wrote:
As I remember, the boat came through just fine.

Scotty


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I'm wondering if it would have been better to stay with
the sailboat, rather
than abandon ship... comments?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Baltimore Sun, 8/18/2001 - Sailing Trip Turns
Treacherous.
Sailboat Meets 700-foot Tanker
One Mile North of the Bay Bridge in the Craighill
Shipping Channel - A
couple tacking southbound at 3 a.m. in a 27-foot
Catalina were unable to
get out of the way of a northbound 700-foot tanker
loaded with 10 million
gallons of fuel. The wind had died & the sailboat's
skipper broke the key
to the outboard motor and was unable to use the radio
to
effect. Before
the collision, the couple abandoned their boat,
wearing
life jackets &
carrying a whistle and rope (to avoid being
separated.)
The tanker brushed
past the sailboat. The couple were rescued after 2
hours
and a search
effort by boats & helicopters from six federal, state
and local rescue
teams. The tanker ran aground, briefly, but was
refloated without damage
or loss of fuel. The sailboat remained operational and
was returned to the
unhurt couple who sailed it to their destination.

My seamanship question #2
 

"Jeff" wrote |
Hello?! If the boat is moving 4 mph over ground, but the current is
| only 2 mph, then the boat must be moving 2 mph through the water!
| Thus the rudder works.

Well, it doesn't work very good. :-O~

| Consider also: you've been plopped in the ocean with no position
| revealing instruments, but you do have speed and wind gauges. You
| sail for some time and then get rescued. Your rescuers ask if you
| encountered any current. What can you tell them?

Nothing but I can tell them if my rudder worked or not. If there's wind
but no current then it will work in irons because the boat goes backwards.
Look at it this way. The rudder feels a current going by it. (if it could feel).
How fast the current goes past land doesn't matter. Only what matters
is current passing the rudder. If the wind is pushing you back at the same
speed the current's going back the rudder feels no current. Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.

Cheers,
Ellen

My seamanship question #2
 

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in
message
reenews.ne
t...
Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the
wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't
feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.


WTF ?

My seamanship question #2
 

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote |
Hello?! If the boat is moving 4 mph over ground, but the current is
| only 2 mph, then the boat must be moving 2 mph through the water!
| Thus the rudder works.

Well, it doesn't work very good. :-O~

| Consider also: you've been plopped in the ocean with no position
| revealing instruments, but you do have speed and wind gauges. You
| sail for some time and then get rescued. Your rescuers ask if you
| encountered any current. What can you tell them?

Nothing but I can tell them if my rudder worked or not. If there's wind
but no current then it will work in irons because the boat goes backwards.
Look at it this way. The rudder feels a current going by it. (if it could feel).

NO NO NO! This is your mistake. The rudder does not feel the current
because the boat and the rudder are always being pushed by the
current. If the boat were anchored, then it could feel the current.
Drifting free, there is no way to know there is a current. There is
no observable affect.

Another analogy: if you're flying on a plane, at a steady speed, do
you feel the chair pushing you at 500 mph? In one of Galileo's works
on "relativity" he asked if a fly in a cabin on a boat would be
affected by the boat's forward motion - would it fly any differently?

This is all the same thing. When the medium in/on which you're
traveling is in constant motion, its very hard to detect that motion.


How fast the current goes past land doesn't matter. Only what matters
is current passing the rudder. If the wind is pushing you back at the same
speed the current's going back the rudder feels no current.

Again, NO. The current is already pushing you back at the speed of
the current. This is unobservable to you, except that it alters the
perceived wind. If the wind also pushes you back that will be
"through the water" and you will sense that as sternway.

Oh, and it's
the same for trying to back the sail by hand. Even if the wind's blowing
10 mph if you're pushed backwards at 10 mph the sail won't feel any wind.
It'll think it's calm out.

As I said, if the current is the same strength as the true wind (and
going in the same direction) it will feel like you're becalmed. In
fact, it is indistinguishable from being becalmed. But this only hold
when the wind and current are the same. In general, you subtract
(in a vector way) the current from the true wind and you have the
observable wind.