You for being stupid. The other boat for hitting you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your
sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the
current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly
another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen

If the wind is pushing you backwards the rudder will work and you should be
able to regain control. The other boat should have taken avoiding action
anyway.

"Ellen MacArthur" wrote in message
reenews.net...
You are sailing your Sunfish. There's a lot of current where your
sailing and the
wind is pretty strong and blowing the same direction the currents going.
You tack and get in irons. The wind pushes you backwards and the
current pushes
you backwards. Your sail flutters and your rudder doesn't work. Suddenly
another
Sunfish runs into the side of your boat.
Who's at fault for the collision and why?


Cheers,
Ellen

"Edgar" wrote
| If the wind is pushing you backwards the rudder will work and you should be
| able to regain control. The other boat should have taken avoiding action
| anyway.


Didn't I say there was a strong current going the same way as the wind?
Your in irons. The wind is blowing you backwards. The current is going backwards
about the same speed. There isn't any water going past the rudder. That makes the
rudder not work. It has to have some speed through the water to work. The only thing
that might work is like somebody else said. You can try backing the sail by hand but
that's not easy on a sunfish. It's narrow and tippy.
And your right the Hobie Cat should have turned away and the Optimist should
have held its course.

Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Edgar" wrote
| If the wind is pushing you backwards the rudder will work and you should be
| able to regain control. The other boat should have taken avoiding action
| anyway.



Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Didn't I say there was a strong current going the same way as the wind?
Your in irons. The wind is blowing you backwards. The current is going backwards
about the same speed.

No it doesn't quite work that way. The current is always pushing you
backwards over the ground. When the wind pushes you backwards it
means backwards through the water.

There isn't any water going past the rudder. That makes the
rudder not work. It has to have some speed through the water to work.

No, when the wind starts "pushing you backwards" you will have
sternway through the water. And then your rudder works.

The only thing
that might work is like somebody else said. You can try backing the sail by hand but
that's not easy on a sunfish. It's narrow and tippy.

If that's the case, you really shouldn't be sailing the boat! You
said in another post that this boat frequently gets stuck in irons; if
its too difficult to deal with that, you shouldn't be out there.
Incompetence does not make you a NUC!

"Jeff" wrote
| Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
| out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
| would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
| wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
| sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Oh fooey! This is getting hopeless..
Jeff, your just wrong! Your in irons. Your not going foward. The wind's
pushing you backwards. The sail is banging around in the middle of the boat.
If there's no current water will be going by you from back to front. The rudder
will work but opposite of how it usually works.
In this case there's a current going the same direction as the wind and
about the same speed. Your going backwards and the water is going backwards
at the same speed. The rudder has no motion through the water. It won't work.
I can't see why you keep talking about land. It's got nothing to do with
land. Only wind, current and water.


Cheers,
Ellen

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote
| Let me say this again: The current has NO affect. If the boats were
| out of sight of land and had no GPS (or other such instruments) they
| would be unable to even detect the current. If there is a 20 knot
| wind from the North, and a 5 knot current running South, all the
| sailor knows is that there is a 15 knot breeze.


Oh fooey! This is getting hopeless..

No, this is the most fun I've had since Jaxashby disappeared.


Jeff, your just wrong!
Oh No!

Your in irons.
OK

Your not going foward.
If there was a current I might never have been going forward. Think
about it.


The wind's pushing you backwards.

Backwards over the ground or through the water? If its over the
ground, how would I know? If its through the water, then the rudder
works!

The sail is banging around in the middle of the boat.
enough of the drama ...


If there's no current water will be going by you from back to front. The rudder
will work

Yes, I'm glad you understand this.

but opposite of how it usually works.

That depends how you look at it.

In this case there's a current going the same direction as the wind and
about the same speed.
Ahhh! We have a problem here. If the wind and the current is the
same speed and direction, then the boat (and all other boats in the
vicinity) feel no wind - it will effectively be flat calm, and the
alleged collision could not happen.

However, you stated there was both a strong wind and a strong current.
To my way of thinking, a strong current is between 3 and 6 knots,
beyond that would be extremely strong and only rarely encountered by
most sailors. However, a strong wind would be at least 15 knots, and
many would consider that pretty wimpy. If the "strong current" was 5
knots, and the "strong wind" was 20, this would be indistinguishable
from 15 knots of wind with no current.

Your going backwards and the water is going backwards
at the same speed. The rudder has no motion through the water.

No. This point is the identical to (and indistinguishable from) the
point where with no current, you stopped moving forwards. Immediately
following that, you start moving backwards, assuming the wind is
stronger than the current.

It won't work.
I can't see why you keep talking about land. It's got nothing to do with
land. Only wind, current and water.

It is only by looking at the land that you can tell there is a
current. If this concept illudes you, consider reading any physics
text written in the last 400 years, starting with Galileo's Theory of
Relativity.

Ellen MacArthur wrote:
Oh fooey! This is getting hopeless..
Jeff, your just wrong! Your in irons. Your not going foward. The wind's
pushing you backwards. The sail is banging around in the middle of the boat.


Ellen, maybe the confusion everyone seems to be having with you is your
choice of words when trying to explain something. You leave so many
ambiguities in each of your problems that there are many choices that
can be right.

Take for instance the above statements. Was the wind blowing you
backwards, or were the sails limp? They are not the same thing.

If the boat was being carried by the current at 3 knots at a certain
bearing, and the wind was going 3 knots at precisely the same bearing,
the boat in irons would NOT be pushed back by the wind. The boat would
see no wind. See? But then, it wouldn't be in irons either, would it.

Yeah, yeah, I know - I'm reading old posts trying to catch up...