Sorry to hear this isn't going smoothly ...

A few thoughts:
Don't worry about the anchors, if you're like me you have your own
thoughts and would likely replace them. Fenders also you might be
replaced, I wouldn't be happy rubbing someone else grunge into my boat
- OTOH it seems rather petty, kind of like a renter taking everything
that isn't nailed down when leaving.

Last time around, I kept all my portable nav instruments, tools, and
cooking utensils. All sailing gear, including things that I had to
replace like a riding sail, were left behind.

I'm surprised at how often manufacturers fail to realize that they are
being judged for future business when they blow off inquiries. We
went to the Newport show in '94 to pick our next boat. A Nonsuch 36
was on the short list and Nonsuch was there with the team that had
taken over from Hinterhoeller. I asked them (VP of Sales, I think) if
there was anyway to upgrade the double line reefing on my N30 to the
new single line system, and they blew me off with a curt "Yea, buy a
new boat." My thought was "**** you too, there's no chance I'll buy a
boat from you," and it was no surprise that no one else bought from
them and the company was gone in a few years.

As for the current deal, its the seller's responsibility to deliver a
boat free of liens. You should not have to put down serious money
until you can legitimately insure the boat. When we bought the PDQ
there was an anxious moment after we had handed over the big check,
because the 800 number for Boat/US would not work with the Canadian
phone system! Of course, this was sorted out in an hour and seemed
like it was a meaningless worry, but an odd thing happened later:
After paying for the boat we played with it for a few days and then
left it in Canada. When we came back in a few weeks we were told not
to be concerned as we walked down the dock because our boat had not
been damaged by the explosion! Indeed, a powerboat 3 slips over had
blown up after returning from the fuel dock and plugging in to the
shore power. Our boat was unaffected, but the cat owned by the owner
of PDQ did suffer cosmetic damage. Had things gone a bit differently,
we could have been in that slip, uninsured.

This deal can probably be salvaged - it sounds like a communication
problem between the seller and the seller's bank. They deal with
house closings every day, this shouldn't be any more complicated.


Scout wrote:
Rob,
Thanks for your advice.

There are posters here I never see because they are in my ****-can
file. Others I read all the time, like you and Doug. I laugh a lot and
skim much of the trolling, but recognize that both you and Doug offer
much to this group. So - what I concluded was that the Seaward is a
superior boat, as you've stated, and I want one! However, upon close
inspection, I also noted some of the things that Doug was referring to.
For example, I noted that the supports for the shrouds, which are made
of very heavy stainless hardware, pass through the cabin via a hole
that appears to just be hacked through the fiberglass, and then
caulked. As a water tight cabin, that doesn't cut it. And as a result
of what appears to be an after-thought, the boat shows evidence of some
major leaks in the cabin, which travelled around, as water leaks do. I
also noted that the Captain's seat across the stern is an arch-shaped
piece of reinforced fiberglass, and it has been broken in two places.
The current owner is much lighter than I, so in the back of my mind I
was fabricating a new, hinged seat. I can deal with these issues, but
my point is that both you and Doug are making truthful and accurate
statements and I took both sets of advice to the inspection with me. It
was very helpful and I thank you both!

I'm also considering a new boat, although when I contacted Seaward to
ask for warranty information on the 2004, their agent wrote back to me
"don't take offense, but you didn't buy the Seaward from us, and we
don't have gobs of time to bring you up to speed on it. - if you have
questions, the seller will have to answer them." That's some factory
support, huh? That one statement made me feel like I wouldn't rush to
give them new business - it's the kind of off-handed remark that just
may have cost them a
$90K sale. For that kind of cash, Precision will build me a 28 model.

Back to the used boat: even though we're talking a fair sum of cash,
the current owner and I kept it rather informal and on a gentleman's
level. However, I realized as we came closer to making the transaction,
that all protection was in the current owner's favor. His bank (loan)
is taking care of their asses but I have no one but myself to cover me.
Hand me a title and I'll hand over the cash is what I had in mind. I
feel as though I'd need to hire an advisor to make this work now.

The lines and fenders are more of an indicator to me than a real
problem. Hell, I threw in life preservers, spare parts, grills, and
every other nicety I could in order to sweeten the deal when I sold.
This didn't kill the deal by itself, but it gave me a reference point
regarding the owner's mindset.
I know there are plenty of nice boats out there for a guy with cash and
a desire to sail, so I'm walking away unless the current owner calls
and fixes things. If it were me, I'd get a bridge loan, and with title
in hand, I'd make a deal.
Thanks again Rob
Scout

Capt. Rob wrote:
Scout, that's a drag. The Seaward was a boat I suggested to you, while
Doug bashed it. I was wondering why you decided Doug's comments had no
bearing on the purchase attempt.
For what it's worth, I work with several surveyors, 2 are sailboat
specialists (pretty much all they do) and all agree the Seaward is one
of the better built small cruising boats. We've had a few come through
here for work and they are damn solid.
Sorry it's not working out, but I think if you talk things over a bit,
you can save the deal. The owner keeping fenders and lines is not the
end of the world. The other aspects of the deal can be worked out
assuming you are certain his paperwork is real and not some sort of
scam. Every now and again someone sells a boat that isn't theirs.


RB
35s5
NY

Sorry to hear that Scout. I think you should go check out the Seaward
message board at Trailersailor.com immediately, as the seller has
taken the case public there, and hasn't exactly represented your side
of the story accurately.


I noticed he didn't mention that he decided at the last
minute to keep some gear that was previously indicated to go
with the boat.

This kind of stuff is one reason why a clearly written sales
contract is a good idea.


"Scout" wrote:
Thanks Charlie,
Very interesting reading. The responders seem to feel I am somehow
planning something illegal or immoral by handing over cash (certified
check from Wachovia) and expecting a title.

Well, the poster named 'Robin' has a pretty clear idea of
what constitutes a closing. Didn't seem judgemental, just
explaining how it works. It is also interesting to me that
this explaination implied that long "clearing" times for
checks are a scam by the bank (which they are). The fact
that it's a very common scam doesn't make it any more honest.



.... I also note that the seller
fails to explain that none of these things (the lien, and the items he
is keeping) were mentioned to me during the inspection, only later,
after I had made the deposit and wanted to arrange a swap date. I
believe the seller is an honest guy, as I am, but we are both
know-nothings with the legal stuff. In spite of his honest intentions,
if he messes up I don't want to pay for the mistake.

BINGO and that is why the closing process includes
protection for both parties.

.... I'd rather pay a
broker's fee, as I did with my last purchase, so everything is above
board and legal.

Yes, so long as the broker is really a pro and knows how to
do things properly. Remember, 50% of all people are below
average intelligence, and 50% of all brokers are below
average in professional knowledge & conduct. For example, I
have only ever talked to one broker in my life who could
clearly and accurately explain the tax obligations of buying
a boat in our state. All the others merely hand out blithe
reassurassances which eventually land the buyer in tax
trouble. You wonder how these guys get by.



..... Even if I felt safe with the deal, how many
times should I have to make the 8 hour drive to close this deal?


Once, and drive back with the boat, with sufficient
paperwork to satisfy the officials in your state, and
certainty of delivery of clear title if you don't get it at
closing.

For him to expect you to fork over 40 grand and wait two
weeks to pick up the boat is absurd.


Charlie Morgan wrote:
I agree with Rob that you can probably work this deal out. I can also
tell you that the seller is a long time contributor to that list, and
he has always seemed like an okay guy.


You learn a lot about people when you buy a car, boat, or
house from them.

FWIW I think he probably is an okay guy, just wants
everything slanted in his favor. Is that so wrong?

The deal is not necessarily dead, but there are a LOT of
boats out there for sale. I'd recommend giving this one a
cooling-off period, and if you don't find something you like
as much or better (that chainplate situation is a little
off-putting) then approach again and mention that you will
want to make the deal properly with a contract & closing.

DSK

I'd make a lower offer, due to the circumstances. The worst
he can do is say no.

S


"DSK" wrote in message
...

The deal is not necessarily dead, but there are a LOT of
boats out there for sale. I'd recommend giving this one a
cooling-off period, and if you don't find something you
like
as much or better (that chainplate situation is a little
off-putting) then approach again and mention that you will
want to make the deal properly with a contract & closing.

DSK

When I bought my boat, the sellers' broker was very
knowledgeable and helpful to me. He answered all my
questions about taxes, registration, etc. , and provided the
necessary forms.

Let me know if you want his name, Scout. He's in Georgetown
MD.

Scotty



"DSK" wrote in message
...
Yes, so long as the broker is really a pro and knows how
to
do things properly. Remember, 50% of all people are below
average intelligence, and 50% of all brokers are below
average in professional knowledge & conduct. For example,
I
have only ever talked to one broker in my life who could
clearly and accurately explain the tax obligations of
buying
a boat in our state. All the others merely hand out blithe
reassurassances which eventually land the buyer in tax
trouble. You wonder how these guys get by.

Actually, #1 is a good indication that something is clearly strange. Keeping that stuff is silly. When I bought my boat, the owner kept "delivering" more stuff to the boat when it was in the yard. He would send me an email, saying that large box is not a bomb, or oh wait I forgot to give you.... happened several times.

Good call on not proceeding. #2 sounds fishy to me.

Don't worry, you'll find something even better.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scout" wrote in message ...
It looks like the deal on my Seaward is dead. Two significant occurrences took place.

1. The small issue: The current owner informed me that he was keeping the anchor, docking lines, and bumpers because he needs them for his "next boat." It just seemed petty. I drove 8 hours to look at the boat, and felt that that would have been a good time to let me know which things I was inspecting weren't staying. More of a tell-tale, but no real big deal. However, when someone is handing you a check for your asking price of nearly $50K, is it then prudent to let the buyer know that you didn't mean to imply that the necessary hardware stays with the boat?

2. The big issue: the current owner wants me to pay off his loan on the boat and wait 2 weeks for the bank to clear the lien and produce the title. I'm not big on finance but it didn't feel right to be in limbo for 2 weeks. Can I sail the boat? Get it insured? Since I am essentially giving the current owner cash, I feel very vulnerable. I think he is an honest guy but too much can happen in two weeks, and I don't have the time or financial and legal expertise to make it work comfortably for me. I know it can be done, but the physical miles between us and the small details will surely become a burden.

Major bummer. Back to the Google Board! ****!

Scout

Capt. Rob wrote:
That's real classy Bob, Scouts' heart is broken and you use
this to take a jab at Doug.



Scotty, take a pill. I wanted to hear what Scout had found and he
honestly told us. Please don't turn every thread into a troll.

Scout, if you really like the boat, don't give up. I will add this
though: The response you got from Seaward is so awful and dumb, I'd
send it back to them and let them know you'd NEVER buy a new boat from
them. They should offer SOME support for thier boats no matter who the
owner is. When I bought the Beneteau they were very helpful in giving
me specs, part info and some history on my exact hull #.
Good luck...I hope it works out.


RB
35s5
NY

Rob,
They (Hake) actually came through for me (maybe). I heard from them on
the boat Frank has been mentioning in the Florida Panhandle. We need to
work out some details (such as adding HD batteries and an inverter for
AC at anchor). It actually looks like a better boat and Hake is doing
the inspection on it (former owner trading it in for the 32). Maybe I
got lucky this time.
And the rep from Hake took the time to let me know "we do have the
title for the boat" - woohoooo!
I'll keep you all posted. If this works out, I'll be in Florida as soon
as Hake is finished the work. Maybe I'll be sailing by October!
Scout

Thanks Jeff,
You've captured my thoughts exactly. The seller is a heck of nice guy
but somehow doesn't understand how I would turn down his proposal. Part
of it was communication - I suppose he assumed I'd be alright with
paying for a boat that he doesn't really own. The bank takes the
position that no one is to be trusted (except them).
The lesson, I guess, is to state up front what is expected from the
other party.
I may still get that boat, Hake has contacted me afterall, and this
26RK looks even better. And, it has their stamp of approval as well as
some new upgrades.
Scout

Jeff wrote:
Sorry to hear this isn't going smoothly ...

A few thoughts:
Don't worry about the anchors, if you're like me you have your own
thoughts and would likely replace them. Fenders also you might be
replaced, I wouldn't be happy rubbing someone else grunge into my boat
- OTOH it seems rather petty, kind of like a renter taking everything
that isn't nailed down when leaving.

Last time around, I kept all my portable nav instruments, tools, and
cooking utensils. All sailing gear, including things that I had to
replace like a riding sail, were left behind.

I'm surprised at how often manufacturers fail to realize that they are
being judged for future business when they blow off inquiries. We
went to the Newport show in '94 to pick our next boat. A Nonsuch 36
was on the short list and Nonsuch was there with the team that had
taken over from Hinterhoeller. I asked them (VP of Sales, I think) if
there was anyway to upgrade the double line reefing on my N30 to the
new single line system, and they blew me off with a curt "Yea, buy a
new boat." My thought was "**** you too, there's no chance I'll buy a
boat from you," and it was no surprise that no one else bought from
them and the company was gone in a few years.

As for the current deal, its the seller's responsibility to deliver a
boat free of liens. You should not have to put down serious money
until you can legitimately insure the boat. When we bought the PDQ
there was an anxious moment after we had handed over the big check,
because the 800 number for Boat/US would not work with the Canadian
phone system! Of course, this was sorted out in an hour and seemed
like it was a meaningless worry, but an odd thing happened later:
After paying for the boat we played with it for a few days and then
left it in Canada. When we came back in a few weeks we were told not
to be concerned as we walked down the dock because our boat had not
been damaged by the explosion! Indeed, a powerboat 3 slips over had
blown up after returning from the fuel dock and plugging in to the
shore power. Our boat was unaffected, but the cat owned by the owner
of PDQ did suffer cosmetic damage. Had things gone a bit differently,
we could have been in that slip, uninsured.

This deal can probably be salvaged - it sounds like a communication
problem between the seller and the seller's bank. They deal with
house closings every day, this shouldn't be any more complicated.


Scout wrote:
Rob,
Thanks for your advice.

There are posters here I never see because they are in my ****-can
file. Others I read all the time, like you and Doug. I laugh a lot and
skim much of the trolling, but recognize that both you and Doug offer
much to this group. So - what I concluded was that the Seaward is a
superior boat, as you've stated, and I want one! However, upon close
inspection, I also noted some of the things that Doug was referring to.
For example, I noted that the supports for the shrouds, which are made
of very heavy stainless hardware, pass through the cabin via a hole
that appears to just be hacked through the fiberglass, and then
caulked. As a water tight cabin, that doesn't cut it. And as a result
of what appears to be an after-thought, the boat shows evidence of some
major leaks in the cabin, which travelled around, as water leaks do. I
also noted that the Captain's seat across the stern is an arch-shaped
piece of reinforced fiberglass, and it has been broken in two places.
The current owner is much lighter than I, so in the back of my mind I
was fabricating a new, hinged seat. I can deal with these issues, but
my point is that both you and Doug are making truthful and accurate
statements and I took both sets of advice to the inspection with me. It
was very helpful and I thank you both!

I'm also considering a new boat, although when I contacted Seaward to
ask for warranty information on the 2004, their agent wrote back to me
"don't take offense, but you didn't buy the Seaward from us, and we
don't have gobs of time to bring you up to speed on it. - if you have
questions, the seller will have to answer them." That's some factory
support, huh? That one statement made me feel like I wouldn't rush to
give them new business - it's the kind of off-handed remark that just
may have cost them a
$90K sale. For that kind of cash, Precision will build me a 28 model.

Back to the used boat: even though we're talking a fair sum of cash,
the current owner and I kept it rather informal and on a gentleman's
level. However, I realized as we came closer to making the transaction,
that all protection was in the current owner's favor. His bank (loan)
is taking care of their asses but I have no one but myself to cover me.
Hand me a title and I'll hand over the cash is what I had in mind. I
feel as though I'd need to hire an advisor to make this work now.

The lines and fenders are more of an indicator to me than a real
problem. Hell, I threw in life preservers, spare parts, grills, and
every other nicety I could in order to sweeten the deal when I sold.
This didn't kill the deal by itself, but it gave me a reference point
regarding the owner's mindset.
I know there are plenty of nice boats out there for a guy with cash and
a desire to sail, so I'm walking away unless the current owner calls
and fixes things. If it were me, I'd get a bridge loan, and with title
in hand, I'd make a deal.
Thanks again Rob
Scout

Capt. Rob wrote:
Scout, that's a drag. The Seaward was a boat I suggested to you, while
Doug bashed it. I was wondering why you decided Doug's comments had no
bearing on the purchase attempt.
For what it's worth, I work with several surveyors, 2 are sailboat
specialists (pretty much all they do) and all agree the Seaward is one
of the better built small cruising boats. We've had a few come through
here for work and they are damn solid.
Sorry it's not working out, but I think if you talk things over a bit,
you can save the deal. The owner keeping fenders and lines is not the
end of the world. The other aspects of the deal can be worked out
assuming you are certain his paperwork is real and not some sort of
scam. Every now and again someone sells a boat that isn't theirs.


RB
35s5
NY

DSK wrote:
Sorry to hear that Scout. I think you should go check out the Seaward
message board at Trailersailor.com immediately, as the seller has
taken the case public there, and hasn't exactly represented your side
of the story accurately.


I noticed he didn't mention that he decided at the last
minute to keep some gear that was previously indicated to go
with the boat.

This kind of stuff is one reason why a clearly written sales
contract is a good idea.


"Scout" wrote:
Thanks Charlie,
Very interesting reading. The responders seem to feel I am somehow
planning something illegal or immoral by handing over cash (certified
check from Wachovia) and expecting a title.

Well, the poster named 'Robin' has a pretty clear idea of
what constitutes a closing. Didn't seem judgemental, just
explaining how it works. It is also interesting to me that
this explaination implied that long "clearing" times for
checks are a scam by the bank (which they are). The fact
that it's a very common scam doesn't make it any more honest.



.... I also note that the seller
fails to explain that none of these things (the lien, and the items he
is keeping) were mentioned to me during the inspection, only later,
after I had made the deposit and wanted to arrange a swap date. I
believe the seller is an honest guy, as I am, but we are both
know-nothings with the legal stuff. In spite of his honest intentions,
if he messes up I don't want to pay for the mistake.

BINGO and that is why the closing process includes
protection for both parties.

.... I'd rather pay a
broker's fee, as I did with my last purchase, so everything is above
board and legal.

Yes, so long as the broker is really a pro and knows how to
do things properly. Remember, 50% of all people are below
average intelligence, and 50% of all brokers are below
average in professional knowledge & conduct. For example, I
have only ever talked to one broker in my life who could
clearly and accurately explain the tax obligations of buying
a boat in our state. All the others merely hand out blithe
reassurassances which eventually land the buyer in tax
trouble. You wonder how these guys get by.



..... Even if I felt safe with the deal, how many
times should I have to make the 8 hour drive to close this deal?


Once, and drive back with the boat, with sufficient
paperwork to satisfy the officials in your state, and
certainty of delivery of clear title if you don't get it at
closing.

For him to expect you to fork over 40 grand and wait two
weeks to pick up the boat is absurd.


Charlie Morgan wrote:
I agree with Rob that you can probably work this deal out. I can also
tell you that the seller is a long time contributor to that list, and
he has always seemed like an okay guy.


You learn a lot about people when you buy a car, boat, or
house from them.

FWIW I think he probably is an okay guy, just wants
everything slanted in his favor. Is that so wrong?

The deal is not necessarily dead, but there are a LOT of
boats out there for sale. I'd recommend giving this one a
cooling-off period, and if you don't find something you like
as much or better (that chainplate situation is a little
off-putting) then approach again and mention that you will
want to make the deal properly with a contract & closing.

DSK

Thanks Doug,
as usual, your points are on target, clear, organized, and well
articulated.
Scout

Thanks Scotty - I think I'll be driving next to Florida to visit the
Hake's!
Scout


Scotty wrote:
When I bought my boat, the sellers' broker was very
knowledgeable and helpful to me. He answered all my
questions about taxes, registration, etc. , and provided the
necessary forms.

Let me know if you want his name, Scout. He's in Georgetown
MD.

Scotty



"DSK" wrote in message
...
Yes, so long as the broker is really a pro and knows how
to
do things properly. Remember, 50% of all people are below
average intelligence, and 50% of all brokers are below
average in professional knowledge & conduct. For example,
I
have only ever talked to one broker in my life who could
clearly and accurately explain the tax obligations of
buying
a boat in our state. All the others merely hand out blithe
reassurassances which eventually land the buyer in tax
trouble. You wonder how these guys get by.

Scout wrote:
Thanks Scotty - I think I'll be driving next to Florida to visit the
Hake's!
Scout


Scotty wrote:
When I bought my boat, the sellers' broker was very
knowledgeable and helpful to me. He answered all my
questions about taxes, registration, etc. , and provided the
necessary forms.

Let me know if you want his name, Scout. He's in Georgetown
MD.

Scotty



"DSK" wrote in message
...
Yes, so long as the broker is really a pro and knows how
to
do things properly. Remember, 50% of all people are below
average intelligence, and 50% of all brokers are below
average in professional knowledge & conduct. For example,
I
have only ever talked to one broker in my life who could
clearly and accurately explain the tax obligations of
buying
a boat in our state. All the others merely hand out blithe
reassurassances which eventually land the buyer in tax
trouble. You wonder how these guys get by.

By any vhancr is that the Hake's formerly of Whitehall, MI?