Loco,
I believe it was me that claimed the wing produced an upward lift on the
hull, not Nutsy.

I don't understand your lack of acceptance to this fact? Do you accept a
fin keel creating upwind lift to eliminate leeway? Do you believe a
simple wooden slate pointed at the proper angle can support a human on
the surface of the water? Do you believe a high performance wind surfer
will lift a man to the surface of the water?

Why can't you except the fact that a wing keel can create a upward lift
on a hull equal to the weight of a crewman.? The elimination of the
weight of a single crewman will make a vessel go faster.

A well designed wing keel, as demonstrated of the Aussies, can and did
make a boat of very similar design sailed by a simular capable crew a
faster boat.

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Thom Stewart wrote:

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something

I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats. Two, any
wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since that
force would only slow the boat down. This fact kinda shoots a hole in
any theory that would suggest that a wing keel could help lift a 15,000
35' bus up onto plane. If this were possible I think we would have
lightweight sport boats with winged keels being sold on every street
corner. As it stands at the present I don't know of one planing
sportboat that uses a winged keel.
The wing on production boats is only a way to get additional
weight down low without going deeper. These days bulbs have become
more fashionable.

Loco,

You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled. It is more
than just weight. It is a aerilon force using "Newton Theory" of force
producing an equal and opposite force.

The Wing Keel works. You have to know how and why it works and then
learn to sail your vessel accordingly. Is it faster; probably not, but
it is a more comfortable ride and a decent wind is equal to or better
than a straight Fin. It has to have a flow over it.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Thom Stewart wrote:
You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled.

Sailboats need righting force when going downwind too. If
there were none, they would tip over.

A wing keel does not make a boat go any faster by lifting it
out of the water. You don't get lift for free. Lift comes at
the expense of drag, remember? The drag created by the wing
in the process of generating lift would be greater than any
drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise you'd have a
perpetual motion machine.

Thom, you also stated that you angled the wings down to aid
the boat going upwind... how is that suddenly going to lift
the boat when going downwind? Adjustable flaps?



The Wing Keel works. You have to know how and why it works and then
learn to sail your vessel accordingly.

Wing keels work a bunch of different ways. One is that they
get more mass down low, improving stability and
sail-carrying power. More power = more speed. Another way
they "work" is to reduce drag at the keel tip by reducing
what's called the tip vortex: a large mass of water that is
swirled at the bottom edge & tip of the keel because of the
merging of the high and low pressure zones on the leeward &
windward sides of the keel. It takes a lot of energy to get
this mass swirling, that energy comes from the boat's
forward motion and is felt by the boat as drag.

Thom I was impressed that you remembered the Aussies passing
Dennis Conner on the downwind leg. That was actually the
biggest advantage Australia 2 had over Liberty; downwind she
could go lower & faster in the same pressure.


....Is it faster; probably not, but
it is a more comfortable ride and a decent wind is equal to or better
than a straight Fin. It has to have a flow over it.


One way I think a wing keel helps is to dampen pitching.
I've noticed this on several different boats... this can
make the boat faster as well as more comfortable.

A big disadvantage of wing keels here in the Southeast is
that they get stuck in the bottom. I have also proven that
you can take a 5' draft fin keel boat into places that a
4.5' wing keel can't go. And once stuck, wing keels are
harder to get free.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Thom Stewart wrote:
You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled.

Sailboats need righting force when going downwind too. If there were none,
they would tip over.

A wing keel does not make a boat go any faster by lifting it out of the
water. You don't get lift for free. Lift comes at the expense of drag,
remember? The drag created by the wing in the process of generating lift
would be greater than any drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise
you'd have a perpetual motion machine.

" . . . and that stupid perpetual motion machine that Lisa made just keeps
going faster and faster. Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of
thermodynamics!"
Homer Simpson in "Disbanding of the PTA"

... The drag created by the wing in the process of generating lift
would be greater than any drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise
you'd have a perpetual motion machine.


Scout wrote:
" . . . and that stupid perpetual motion machine that Lisa made just keeps
going faster and faster. Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of
thermodynamics!"
Homer Simpson in "Disbanding of the PTA"


If there was a perpetual motion machine that mowed the lawn,
I'd be in favor of it.

You wanna try to explain the difference between a wing keel
and a hydrofoil to ChuckieM/Krusty/BB? Other than that one
is very heavy and increases stability by use of much lead,
and the other is as light as can be made for the strength
needed?

DSK

Doug,

The biggest and intended difference is the wing was to keep the boat in
the water AND UPRIGHT so the sails would be more efficent.

A Hydrofoil is meant to lift as much wetted area as possible to reduce
Drag




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Loco;

--------------------------------------------
Two, any wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since
that force would only slow the boat down.
______________________________

What kind of a stupid statement is that?
Any an all keels creates force and slows a boat down but they are a
necessary evil to give direction and stability. With or without wings.
A fixed keel is a creation of drag as well as lift.

I can only thing of the saying; " No one is as blind as a person who
refuses to see!"




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

What kind of a stupid statement is that?
Any an all keels creates force and slows a boat down but they are a
necessary evil to give direction and stability. With or without wings.

A fixed keel is a creation of drag as well as lift.

Paul Yates reference to a wing keel not creating a force in any
direction was describing how if the boat is sitting flat in the water
the "wings" should be flat too. In other words the wings cannot be
angled up or down like the elevators on an airplane. Yes, the wing
keel will creat lift when going upwind like any keel but not "lift"
going downwind to get the boat to "get up on plane" Once again, winged
keels on production boats bacame popular after the Americas Cup because
rummys thought they were high tech when in reality they were just a new
way to add weight without going deeper. If they are so great where are
they now? As I said before bulbs are now the rage.

Loco,

The wing on Pneuma's keel pointed
down at two degrees when the boat was at rest. This was ot counter
leeway when heeled :^p




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage